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John Kavanaugh

Re: This guy might be one of the finer minds in golf
« Reply #75 on: November 20, 2008, 08:53:28 AM »


I really do not understand all of the hostility on this site towards superintendents. :P


Bradley,

I don't know anyone on this site that does not love superintendents, including me.  To me they seem to have gone the route of Kobe beef.  We just want to go back to the day of a fine $11 steak when no one asked the cows name.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2008, 08:55:52 AM by John Kavanaugh »

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: This guy might be one of the finer minds in golf
« Reply #76 on: November 20, 2008, 10:01:45 AM »


I really do not understand all of the hostility on this site towards superintendents. :P


Bradley,

I don't know anyone on this site that does not love superintendents, including me.  To me they seem to have gone the route of Kobe beef.  We just want to go back to the day of a fine $11 steak when no one asked the cows name.

JK,
And the same can be said for architects.....when we get golf to where most don't know who the architect is that did the course then we wll be back where we need to be......
Bradley.....no hostility intended toward supts.....I feel supts are the most critical employees at a club....now I do have some issues with the guys they call COO in charge of grounds, turfgrass and golf course facilities...and they work from the Turfgrass operations center for the north nine..... ;D ;D ;D ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: This guy might be one of the finer minds in golf
« Reply #77 on: November 20, 2008, 12:07:48 PM »
I blame the media!   ;D
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: This guy might be one of the finer minds in golf
« Reply #78 on: November 20, 2008, 01:03:09 PM »
Quote
..."To me they(supers) seem to have gone the route of Kobe beef.  We just want to go back to the day of a fine $11 steak when no one asked the cows name.-Kavanaugh

Who starts a $10 million project thinking they could hire someone to manage it for a $25k salary?
Who starts this same project without the benefit of a 'name' architect (be he ex-tour or not) who gets his 10%?

There are still a lot of places where $11 steaks are the norm. 
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: This guy might be one of the finer minds in golf
« Reply #79 on: November 20, 2008, 03:25:29 PM »
Bradley,

I wasn't characterizing any one profession; notice that I used WE in my comment about class warfare.  Like Kavanaugh and Young, I hold the superintendent in very high regard.  He is probably the most critical employee of a golf operation.

As to fixing blame, it certainly is not a guy like Silverstein.  He merely shared his knowledge and expertise.

I opined earlier that the consumer is the culprit if one existed.  And the problem is not just related to golf.  Look what we expect the government to do but are unwilling to pay for.  At the same time we demand free healthcare, education, and a pristine, carbon-less environment, we want a middle class tax cut while shifting the costs to the "rich" 5%.  Unfortunately, money for nothing (and chicks for free) exists only in lyrics and Hollywood scripts.

Someone noted earlier that golf was a lagging economic indicator.  I would argue that perhaps the opposite is true, that it leads. We've been talking about golf's downfall as long as I've been on this site, and much of the time the economy was going along just fine. The industry's problems began many years ago though perhaps these were masked on the supply side by plentiful, hot Wall Street money.  .

Personally, I think our market economy has been subjected to continuous impediments beginning as late as the Great Depression, and greatly accelerated under Johnson, Nixon, Bush I, Clinton, and now Bush II.  World War II followed by the feminist movement brought some respite by introducing women into the mainstream workforce to generate an additional source of income for many families.

Technological innovation, primarily computers, robotics, the Internet, and telecommunications, have further served to reduce the noise placed into the economic system by the collective.  Perhaps there is another scientific miracle just right around the corner- the repeal of the laws of physics might be nice; maybe Mr. Gore has recently discovered perpetual motion or his venture capital fund has made it possible to turn hydrogen into fuel without exerting more energy to do so than it creates.  Hopefully we are not going back to the days of child labor in order to make ends meet.

The questions that face not just the golf industry but our country as well are very difficult.  Have societal demands and their costs reached critical mass such that our economic arteries are clogged up?  Is there a solvent in the horizon that can partially open these so that we can live to fight another day?  Can higher taxes on the productive, bailouts for the failed, and the further economic burdens of socialized medicine, carbon-less energy policy, and the Big Labor agenda be anything other than, metaphorically, pouring concrete directly into the heart of the economy?

Someone here suggested that the golf industry's current problems might be a good thing.  Depending on one's definition of a "purist" and how far we may wish to go back in the game's history, perhaps the devolution of the game to its roots is something to celebrate.  Personally, I don't like lost balls nor am I inclined to stuff them myself, so I doubt that I'll be heading down to Camp Pendleton and try to play my way up from the surf to the Five.  However, I might be willing to pay a small fee to watch Naccarato and Stamm play such a match.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2008, 03:30:11 PM by Lou_Duran »

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: This guy might be one of the finer minds in golf
« Reply #80 on: November 20, 2008, 04:30:31 PM »
Lou,
No need to go all political, but if you must why don't you get it correct.

-Consumers aren't looking for free health care, just health care they can afford.
-No one is asking for free education, just something more affordable.
-Everyone understands that carbon fuels aren't going away in the future, only that their percentage should decrease if we expect to become more self sufficient, and less beholden to others.
-Taxes that might rise a few percentage points aren't that onerous, and you know it.

 

« Last Edit: November 20, 2008, 04:39:03 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: This guy might be one of the finer minds in golf New
« Reply #81 on: November 20, 2008, 06:14:46 PM »
 :P
« Last Edit: November 21, 2008, 04:47:12 PM by RJ_Daley »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: This guy might be one of the finer minds in golf
« Reply #82 on: November 20, 2008, 06:22:33 PM »
Well, I've heard it all now.  First, a guy is brilliant because he wants to make more money.  Now Lou tells us the customer is wrong.  What other flotsam and jetsom is floating around out there?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: This guy might be one of the finer minds in golf
« Reply #83 on: November 20, 2008, 07:06:29 PM »
Sean,

I don't know.  You of great planning and zoning knowledge, please tell us? 

Dick,

You really don't know me at all.  The 5%s will take care of themselves.  It is for the rest that I fear.

Jim,

Me political?  I thought we were talking about economics in relation to golf and our country.  Quoting one of your heroes, I suppose "it all depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is".

I agree that for most people "free" might be a little off.  How about for substantially less to the "buyer" than their actual costs?

As to carbon taxes and regulation, we probably should adjust Everett Dirksen's "a billion here, a billion there and pretty soon it adds up to real money" for inflation.  Perhaps a couple trillion dollar whack to an already floundering economy is no big thing these days.

You say "Taxes that might rise a few percentage points aren't that onerous, and you know it".  Really?  You know what I know?  If you're right, why don't we just whack everyone's income by the same "few percentage points"?  BTW, if I thought that raising taxes was a good thing for the country I would be among the first to ask my fellow Americans to pay more, and I wouldn't wait for Congress to pass tax legislation before sending the IRS a bigger check.  Come to think of it, I wonder how many here ever send the IRS more than what the law requires or what they think they can get away with.  No need to reply.  I know the answer to this purely rhetorical question. 

   
« Last Edit: November 20, 2008, 07:11:47 PM by Lou_Duran »

Kyle Harris

Re: This guy might be one of the finer minds in golf
« Reply #84 on: November 20, 2008, 07:08:20 PM »
Quote
..."To me they(supers) seem to have gone the route of Kobe beef.  We just want to go back to the day of a fine $11 steak when no one asked the cows name.-Kavanaugh

Who starts a $10 million project thinking they could hire someone to manage it for a $25k salary?
Who starts this same project without the benefit of a 'name' architect (be he ex-tour or not) who gets his 10%?

There are still a lot of places where $11 steaks are the norm. 

I think this is tangential to the point, but perhaps the issues is the $10 million project.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: This guy might be one of the finer minds in golf New
« Reply #85 on: November 20, 2008, 07:22:02 PM »
 :-*
« Last Edit: November 21, 2008, 04:47:34 PM by RJ_Daley »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: This guy might be one of the finer minds in golf
« Reply #86 on: November 20, 2008, 07:30:29 PM »
Actually Lou, Clinton wasn't one of 'my heroes', although I do remember that my business was doing pretty well, and so were those of my friends(Dems, Reps & Inds.)

When it comes to taxes, W & the Republican congress cut taxes in every  year since 2000. Income tax rates were reduced, capital gains tax to 15% from 20%, tax on dividend payments was cut by more than half, from 35% to 15% and the marriage tax was reduced while the tax credit for kids was was doubled from $500 to $1,000. Even small business was given a break when they were allowed to expense some of their business investments rather than depreciate them over a long period.

Thank God we are all benefiting from this.  ::)  :P



Kyle,
I'm going to do a little bashing here. The readiness of some people to  blame others for their mistakes, and then throw them under the bus, is despicable.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: This guy might be one of the finer minds in golf
« Reply #87 on: November 20, 2008, 07:31:38 PM »
Hey guys,

The political BS was supposed to be all wrapped up when the election was over...Remember?  ;D

J_ Crisham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: This guy might be one of the finer minds in golf
« Reply #88 on: November 20, 2008, 08:09:56 PM »
could it be that the people at the middle to bottom receive less than they should in terms of access and affordablity in their strata for services like education or health care, and pay more than they should in taxes, while the people at the top receive more than they should in getting better deals due to their purchasing power and connections to access to HC and Ed institutions that are the cream of the lot, and pay less in taxes to than they should? 
RJ,  I find it interesting to read some of your comments regarding health care. I'm not sure by your comments if you are a provider or not . I will assume you are not . Just a few facts. In my private practice I accept patients on Medicaid.  My office overhead is roughly 50-55 % over the last 19 years in practice. The reimbursement rate is roughly 45%. When I see these patients I do it basically for free . It's the right thing to do in my mind ethically. But keep in mind healthcare isn't a right. Some of these patients are wonderful to treat but they also have a 3 times as likely rate to no show for an appointment . They are also 2 times as likely to be noncompliant with meds. These are the patients that call me at home on a Sunday because they were to lazy to get up for an 8am apptmt during the week. Having spent 20 yrs in school to develop my skills at great personal and monetary cost I am always amazed by non Drs atitudes towards healthcare and a sense of it being something one should receive with little or no cost. Try using that rational at a supermarket or car dealership. In this country people that are motivated do not have to live in poverty-you can make your dream come true-I know this because I did it!  Jack     

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: This guy might be one of the finer minds in golf
« Reply #89 on: November 20, 2008, 08:40:50 PM »
Kalen,

Nah, why stop having fun when it is just beginning?  Or would you rather discuss whether CPC's #14 is a true "bottle" hole?  (Hint: it is not.)  What can be more important to golf and our lives than the current meltdown of our economy and the poison the new doctors are prescribing as medicine?

Dick,

With all due respect, I am not sure if I have ever read anything that was so ass backwards than your last comments.  On the other hand, when words seem to have so little common meaning and perspectives are so all over the place, I am not surprised.

Jim,

My apologies for incorrectly associating you with President Clinton.

So, the tax cuts are the cause of our current economic problems?  But how can this be when GDP has grown considerably until last quarter and tax receipts as a percentage of GDP are near the high end of the historical range?

Do you think that maybe a trillion dollars of government "encouraged" sub-prime loans and another trillion of Alt. A "liar's loans" might have had a little to do with it?  Do you think Detroit's problems with their legacy costs and a $1,500 per car benefits disadvantage vis-a-vis their competitors were the result of Bush tax cuts?  Do you think that maybe your party's capitulation to the environmentalist extremists for the last 20 years had a little to do with the spike in oil prices in 2008 which helped escalate the default on mortgages and the downturn in the economy?  Nah, it is more emotionally satisfying to believe that the troubles were caused by those "rich", greedy, God-fearing Republicans who wouldn't share their ill-gotten gains.  Please!

As with you, I find blaming others for their mistakes extremely repulsive and despicable.  That's why when I heard that Senator Ried "appointed" Barney Frank and Chris Dodd to review and approve any future auto industry proposals for a bailout I became apoplectic.

Now back to golf.  We don't pay superintendents and their staffs enough.  Maybe the industry needs to recapitalize into a non-profit mode.  The question is, who is going to provide the capital?  Or is this question too political for this august group?

End of rant.

Happy Thanksgiving to all.      
« Last Edit: November 20, 2008, 08:52:45 PM by Lou_Duran »

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: This guy might be one of the finer minds in golf New
« Reply #90 on: November 20, 2008, 11:56:14 PM »
 ::)
« Last Edit: November 21, 2008, 04:47:58 PM by RJ_Daley »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

John Kavanaugh

Re: This guy might be one of the finer minds in golf
« Reply #91 on: November 21, 2008, 08:29:06 AM »

I must say it is about time that health care IS A RIGHT! 
 

Dick,

You were given a perfectly good hip that you wore out through poor life management.  You do not have the right to a new one when only recreational activities are hampered by your pain.  The public funds you desire are better spent elsewhere.

John Kavanaugh

Re: This guy might be one of the finer minds in golf
« Reply #92 on: November 21, 2008, 09:30:05 AM »
Good news Dick...Now you will be able to play on those cold Wisconsin mornings.  Get on the horn to Wilfred Brimley before the free ones are gone.



J_ Crisham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: This guy might be one of the finer minds in golf
« Reply #93 on: November 21, 2008, 01:37:16 PM »
Jack, what would your student fees and debt have been had you been a resident of most Euro countries?  From what I can tell, if you show the academic merit, you get a free med school education, or pretty close to it (particularly compared to the costs of US med school).  So, that is one of the age old gripes that is the first go-to retort of US MDs when they speak of how they really don't have it that good.  Then they go to the enormous malpractice fees card to demonstrate they are the ones being crapped upon.  Then they go to the long hours of rigorous and nearly torturous hours up for days without sleep as residents and such.  Then they go to the charity in their hearts deal where they treat all these 'medicaid' people (read welfare and minorities) and talk about their slovenly ways.  Every time someone challenges the status quo in US healthcare, the MDs start to sound like other people that the conservatives yammer about, like "union people", crying about their pay and benes.  No wonder MDs are so ornery and arrogant.  You guys are put through such unecessay BS by a screwed up system.

I must say it is about time that health care IS A RIGHT!  Make up a euphamisim if you must to get past any disdain you have against some sort of social compact that citizens would have with one another to provide what just about the rest of the civilized world believes is a baseline of humanitarian compassion, that is fully within the reach of the resources of their country, or ours for that matter. 

You say you treat these medicaid/welfare types that don't keep appts and call you in the middle of the night.  And, you don't get reimbursed enough by the manditory fee scheds of the welfare program.  You are doing it almost for free?  How much do you charge people that don't have coverage for various reasons and yet do have modest assets?  Do you or your clinic or hospital get to end up owning their homes?  It happens and you know it!!!  And, if the stats are correct, it happens to folks that pay their health insurance for years and years, then get screwed out of coverage by some twist of fates, or turn of a contractual jibberish phrase in their sched of benefits in their rigged policies and get big claims denied for technicality reasons.  How hostile would you be if that happened to you?

Then hows about we devise a system where you get to go to med school for a reasonable price of on government grants because it is in the interest of the country to have adequate numbers of MDs and practioners; don't get banged so bad on malpractice; you are assured fair payment for your services, and you have a manageable case load of patients that leaves you time for your life too?  A system like just about all of Europe!!! 

And, quit blaming folks that are by one means or another, locked out of the system you work in now, and for even routine or very manageable things don't get covered and they stay away from proper med care only to have problems get worse because they are frightened that they will be bankrupt and life wouldn't even be worth living as a pauper. 

There aren't enough charities, or bake sales to go around for all the folks getting crushed by med costs. 
RJ,    A long time ago I learned to never criticize another man's profession. Unless you walk a day in their shoe's how do you truly know what it's like. Just some personal facts. I earned an Evans Scholarship from Beverly-graduated from undergrad in 3 yrs and the WGA was gracious enough to pay for my 1st yr of grad school. I bartended and sold shoes in a mall in St. Louis on the weekends. I also took out loans to get thru my training. Not sure what occurs in Europe or Canada but I know that if I needed a procedure done the good old USA is where I would want it done. If you don't have your health ,what do you have? As far as my personal situation , I am self employed-I have never chased a patient for their home-quite the oppposite. I write off significant bad debt every year. I'm not complaining that's life. I do a hell of a lot of charity work and would not mention it if you weren't so aggresive in your attempts to bad mouth all doctors. Some are whiners,financially motivated, etc,just like every other segment of our population. My father worked for the Chicago Police Dept for 30  yrs raising 5 kids. I understand you are former law enforcement. How would you like me to categorize your profession as a Group of jelly donut eating civil rights abusers? I wouldn't- because it isn't true. My many friends and family members that are CPD deserve  better . My hope is that you would refrain from generalizing about another man's world. As an aside I have no problems with unions or benefits but there will always be poverty as long as people are unwilling to help themselves. Is it too much to ask someone who is getting something for  nothing to at least show up for an appointment? My per capita income of my patients is under 40K /year so it 's unfair for you to suggest that all doctors prefer to treat the wealthy. We/I treat who comes in the door.  Life isn't always fair and at this point in your life you should know that but it beats not not living! I wish you well,  Jack

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: This guy might be one of the finer minds in golf
« Reply #94 on: November 21, 2008, 02:17:32 PM »
taking it off line to IM, no use in subjecting others here...
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

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