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Rob Rigg

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2008 Best New Courses - T&L Golf Mag
« on: November 08, 2008, 01:07:43 AM »
Course of the Year - The Castle Course (DMK) - Melvyn's favorite new layout in Scotland and just down the street from TOC to boot. "What is that Melvyn? A must play and far better than Askernish? Wow, that is high praise!"

The balance of the courses were not ranked:

- The Chase at Coyote Springs (Jack) - So So feedback thus far on the site I believe?

- Ritz-Carlton GC at Creighton Farms (Jack) - ?

- The Club at Tower Ranch (McBroom) - Has anyone played this course? It is in the Okanagan Valley which is an absolutely spectacular part of BC. From the pic in the mag it looks like a scenic layout but the white sand versus the golden hues of the grass is too much of a juxtaposition for me and takes away from the perceived naturalism of the course.

- Tetherow GC (DMK) - I loved it but it obviously got some mixed reviews on the site. I think it will be more palatable, and less controversial, when they trim down the "eyebrows". I really wish they were not building mansions on the site, a tragedy. It is a remarkable setting and the fescue is such a nice change of pace, and melds nicely with the high desert surrounds.

- Sugarloaf Mountain Golf and Town Club (C&C) - I think the commentary has been that Sugarloaf is standard C&C fare? Meaning certainly worth playing, but not their best work?

- The Legacy Course at Roco Ki (Faldo) - This new DR course looks spectacular and the ocean front setting on several of the holes must be breathtaking. Not sure about the overall quality of the 18 in total and not stoked about the $225 to $400 green fee. Anyone teed it up here?

- Four Mile Ranch (Engh) - Looks like a course I would love to play. No bunkers, beautiful setting, and very reasonable green fees.

- Palouse Ridge GC at WSU (Harbottle) - Positive reviews from the treehouse if I recall. If you are going wine tasting in Walla Walla, it would be a great detour.

- RCCC (Doak) - This course has already received a lot of press on the site. Definitely on my "Dream Golf" list, the aesthetics are incredible.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2008, 03:30:14 PM by Rob Rigg »

Ryan Farrow

Re: 2008 Best New Courses - T&L Golf Mag
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2008, 03:17:00 AM »
Deleted rant about RCCC because of Rob Riggs confusing post  ;D
« Last Edit: November 08, 2008, 05:17:58 PM by Ryan Farrow »

John Kirk

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Re: 2008 Best New Courses - T&L Golf Mag
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2008, 09:25:08 AM »
Can anybody verify that all 18 holes at Roco Ki are complete?

Eric_Terhorst

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Re: 2008 Best New Courses - T&L Golf Mag
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2008, 09:40:44 AM »
O this is good, real good. Sure all 9 of those courses are better than Rock Creek. Did we pick the names out of a hat? Because that is certainly what it looks like.

Aren't we a little sensitive Ryan?

I didn't get the idea, other than picking the Castle Course as "Course of the Year" that this article meant to list the other courses in order of merit.

However, I'm sure among this crowd after 10 or 11 pages of...educational...argument we can find agreement on which course is EXACTLY #1 and which is EXACTLY #2  :P

Andy Troeger

Re: 2008 Best New Courses - T&L Golf Mag
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2008, 10:11:57 AM »
Its interesting how all of these best new lists seem to be different. There are some common courses obviously, but not much consensus that I can tell. Part of that is each magazine has a different deadline for what's considered new--courses like Tetherow and Rock Creek won't be considered by GD until next year due to their opening dates.

Tom Dunne

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Re: 2008 Best New Courses - T&L Golf Mag
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2008, 10:31:06 AM »
Ryan, 2-10 on the list are not ranked.

Adam Clayman

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Re: 2008 Best New Courses - T&L Golf Mag
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2008, 10:48:51 AM »
These recent rants about when the course opens versus when it becomes eligible for some years list is fruitless. Best New lists should define new as the year the course achieves the pre-requisite number of votes, not necessarily the year it opens. When does a course really open, anyway? People play the course during grow in (and before). Allowing owners to cherry pick their opening date, because of their competition for these lists, is my rationale for calling out those who believe in a stricter definition of opening.
 Telling panelists to get off their butts is a ridiculous notion, too. Unless they all get to have their expenses paid for too. Fat chance of that happening with the large publications. I guess smaller regional magazines with fewer panelists have an edge on that front. 
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Matt_Ward

Re: 2008 Best New Courses - T&L Golf Mag
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2008, 11:19:25 AM »
Adam:

Allow me to try to explain this to you and see if it helps clear up your thinking that such matters are "fruitless."

Years back the different magazines -- notably Digest -- wanted to make sure they had total coverage of the USA and therefore designated certain panelists to play certain courses. A necessary item because if you allow panelists to determine alone what courses they play it was not unheard of having the same panelists continually rate the courses of certain architects they always favored (whether knowingly or not). In short, you'd have people doing the cherry-picking situation in which numbers can get stacked for certain architects and their related projects.

The magazines have sufficient resources -- either thru their raters or their editors / staffs to get off their butts and get ahead of the situations when key courses are set to come on line. If these folks are not sufficiently clued in to what is happening then frankly I don't see them as being relevant in providing core readers / subscribers with cutting edge stuff.

What's becoming more and more of a reality is that the more high profile magazines are offering dated info as others are quickly getting ahead of them for what is happening in the field. Years ago that didn't happen but the Internet age has fast tracked the overall awareness of others and as a consequence the magazines are often a few days / weeks / months behind.

A number of key examples spring to mind -- The Kingsley Club, Black Mesa, are two of the more high profile layouts in recent years -- on the lesser side are places like Boulder Creek in Nevada which got far less attention simply because it's not on The Strip and its architect doesn't have "most favored" architect status.   

You did mention the role of lesser magazines that are regional in scope. Plenty of times I have accessed their info to learn more and more about what is happening in those spots. In a number of occasions the info put out has been most helpful because it's more upfront, clear and often time more insightful than the national publications.

People who run the leading magazines need to realize that determining what is "new" is not a difficult thing. To follow your flawed reasoning that courses should be held until sufficient raters get there is totally unfair. That would allow the lesser visited places to be in a much better position to have all elements ready to go versus other courses that opened and likely were not able to do likewise.

Adam, once a facility is "officially" open to either the public or its members / guests it's OPEN. That's a factual matter -- not something that should be manipulated for other purposes. Fact checking that matter is something any good publication can do and with the plethora of panelists that the top ones have there's no reason why courses should be held back because of their own inertia in getting there - no matter the expense or location.

Andy:

Digest is flawed to hold back Tetherow and Rock Creek from this year. There was enough time and info for people to see them both. Digest did a similar thing w Kingsley Club a number of years back and it was clearly an error on their part.



Andy Troeger

Re: 2008 Best New Courses - T&L Golf Mag
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2008, 12:44:08 PM »
Matt,
You have the right to your opinion, but the point of best new contests is not just whether you can get guys to a couple courses that might be likely to win, but whether you can get coverage to EVERY new course that wants to be considered. You have to draw a line in time somewhere--you can't open in September and be considered. You could make an argument that the deadline should be different and to a point I wouldn't totally disagree, but at least its consistent and folks are alerted to it early on. Getting folks to Rock Creek might not be difficult because of Doak's other success, but what a lesser "name" course opened at the same time? Could you get 10 folks out there too?

Plus, courses do not always open at the same "readiness" for play. Sierra del Rio and Four Mile Ranch were courses that wanted to be rated quite frankly before they were probably ready for play (or were even open for play perhaps). Other "new" courses look flawless because they gave themselves extra time before their official opening.

Digest still assigns new courses to panelists. They just don't tell them they have one month to get out to multiple courses that are not close to their locale, because most folks don't consider that a reasonable request. I'm fortunate that my busy work season is September--March, but others aren't so lucky. I think I'm grateful you are not our editor.  ;D

Ryan Farrow

Re: 2008 Best New Courses - T&L Golf Mag
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2008, 02:19:08 PM »
Sorry if I rattled anyone here, perhaps Rob Rigg can be a little more careful not numbering lists that are not numbered. But Matt Ward made a good point in another thread about the lists for best new actually coming out when the course is opened, not when enough raters have come out to see it. It would probably be more appropriate for a few of the magazine editors or some of there more knowledgeable raters to pick a few of their favorite courses from that year and rate them individually. There is obviously no need to rank them 1-40 like golf week, perhaps T&L is on to something now that I found out they did not even rank them 1-10  ;D just picked one they thought was the best and list some other notable courses. Then people like Shivas and I can get all worked up when courses like Rock Creek are not picked #1.

Rob Rigg

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Re: 2008 Best New Courses - T&L Golf Mag
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2008, 03:33:46 PM »
Ryan,

Good point - Apologies for numbering the courses (this has been edited) - It must have been done out of habit  ;)

The Castle Course was indeed the only one called for special recognition.

I think this is a great format, provided that the magazine only selects 10 or so courses in total. A list of 50 new courses without some sort of scaling would be fairly useless.

Ryan Farrow

Re: 2008 Best New Courses - T&L Golf Mag
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2008, 03:43:42 PM »
Thanks Rob!! ;D

T&L is usually the one I pick up when I am at the Airport, they are always good for a few solid articles in every magazine. How many pages did they dedicate to the best new list? Paragraph for each course mentioned? Also what course is that on the front cover?

Norbert P

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Re: 2008 Best New Courses - T&L Golf Mag
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2008, 04:32:58 PM »
 The "Best New..." heading is a misleading marketing tactic. I couldn't find any rules or parameters of why they chose these 10 courses. Perhaps a more accurate heading would be" 10 New Golf Courses to Consider Traveling to for Leisure." 

  I've only seen one of these courses, Palouse Ridge, in Pullman, Washington, but I can't imagine it being a Top 10 in a well-considered international competition.  I wish it could be, but It won't hold up to the scrutiny of time.
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Jonathan Cummings

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Re: 2008 Best New Courses - T&L Golf Mag
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2008, 04:39:28 PM »
Rating courses is like establishing handicaps - an imperfect "science" but better than nothing at all.  Live with it!  JC

Carl Nichols

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Re: 2008 Best New Courses - T&L Golf Mag
« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2008, 04:43:29 PM »
A couple of buddies played Creighton Farms and absolutely loved it.  I had to bail because of a commitment I couldn't extract myself from.   :(

Jonathan Cummings

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Re: 2008 Best New Courses - T&L Golf Mag
« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2008, 05:04:32 PM »
Carl - I wrote a feature article for VSGA on Creighton that was run earlier in the year.  Lyons did a wonderful job on a job good piece of rolling VA property.  You can actually see some Sebanok in the layout (done at about the same time). 

But (and Jim - I love ya like a brother so please understand it's just my opinion) RCCC has more depth and character than Creighton.  JC 

Matt_Ward

Re: 2008 Best New Courses - T&L Golf Mag
« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2008, 06:23:56 PM »
Andy:

A few retorts ...

Let's be real -- OK. It's quite easy to discern which courses are the top ones demanding attention. The word "on the street" is quite good in many instances -- provided one has one's ear close to the ground to hear the buzz. It's not necessary to fret over some dog and pony show muni or other low level layout that really has no shot in such a very competitive setting.

When a place like Rock Creek and Tetherow are set to open the magazines need to be on top of the situaiton given the pedigree of places that Doak and Kidd respectively have done. In would be akin to having film critics taking the work of Martin Scorcesse or Oliver Stone on a priority basis because of what they contributed to the cinema universe.

Both places in question opened in plenty of time for people -- especially area raters to get there. We live in the jet age -- not the stage wagon.

What's amazing is that the top magaines are now being regularly beaten to the punch by other info sources and those courses that have been selected by the magazines, in a number of instances in my mind, have truly been second banana picks.

In regards to Four Mile Ranch the course should be assessed for the '08 calendar. It was more than ready for play when I was there in August and if I can get there from NJ to play it -- there's no reason why area raters from the greater Denver / Colorado Springs area could not get there to play it.

I don't doubt that certain courses may hold back their "official" opening day but it's easy for people in the know to find out if the info given out matches up to the reality of people actually playing the course earlier. If such courses are being played regularly at an earlier date then they should be rated for that year -- not the one that follows.

Digest was smart to assign different people to courses because the homer issue is alive and well -- either for particular architects or sections of the country. One other thing Andy -- the people who are panelists aren't exactly hurting financially so that getting to tough locations would be a sheer impossibility. And, if they can't do it -- then the editors need to hop on a plane and find out for themselves.






 

Rob Rigg

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Re: 2008 Best New Courses - T&L Golf Mag
« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2008, 07:02:47 PM »
- Faldo's Legacy course at Roco Ki got the cover
- 14 pages dedicated in total
- Castle got a few paragraphs while the others got one a photo (which varied in size from full page spread to 1/4 page)

A little more insight on each course would have been nice.

Andy Troeger

Re: 2008 Best New Courses - T&L Golf Mag
« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2008, 10:19:07 PM »
Andy:

A few retorts ...

Let's be real -- OK. It's quite easy to discern which courses are the top ones demanding attention. The word "on the street" is quite good in many instances -- provided one has one's ear close to the ground to hear the buzz. It's not necessary to fret over some dog and pony show muni or other low level layout that really has no shot in such a very competitive setting.

When a place like Rock Creek and Tetherow are set to open the magazines need to be on top of the situaiton given the pedigree of places that Doak and Kidd respectively have done. In would be akin to having film critics taking the work of Martin Scorcesse or Oliver Stone on a priority basis because of what they contributed to the cinema universe.

Both places in question opened in plenty of time for people -- especially area raters to get there. We live in the jet age -- not the stage wagon.

What's amazing is that the top magaines are now being regularly beaten to the punch by other info sources and those courses that have been selected by the magazines, in a number of instances in my mind, have truly been second banana picks.

In regards to Four Mile Ranch the course should be assessed for the '08 calendar. It was more than ready for play when I was there in August and if I can get there from NJ to play it -- there's no reason why area raters from the greater Denver / Colorado Springs area could not get there to play it.

I don't doubt that certain courses may hold back their "official" opening day but it's easy for people in the know to find out if the info given out matches up to the reality of people actually playing the course earlier. If such courses are being played regularly at an earlier date then they should be rated for that year -- not the one that follows.

Digest was smart to assign different people to courses because the homer issue is alive and well -- either for particular architects or sections of the country. One other thing Andy -- the people who are panelists aren't exactly hurting financially so that getting to tough locations would be a sheer impossibility. And, if they can't do it -- then the editors need to hop on a plane and find out for themselves.


Matt,
I don't know when Rock Creek and Tetherow officially opened, so its possible they were close to the deadline. If they really wanted to have been on this year's ballot I would guess they could have made it happen. Its not ideal for GD to be the last one out on those courses, but I'd rather have that process than the GW process that allows courses to be on the list in multiple years.

I'm not surprised that 4 Mile was better in August than it was in June. It wasn't bad in June, but the greens were very slow and that certainly isn't ideal for Engh's greens. Slopes that should work as funnels didn't necessarily do so...you could get the idea at least. I'm not arguing that folks can't get to 4 Mile, its not that far from the largest city in the mountain time zone.

Some of the best new courses, and remember we're also looking at some of those affordable publics that you rightfully want people to know about, are not designed by big names and it would likely be difficult to pin down without actually seeing them. I'd be very leery of having different rules for different types of courses just because of the architect's pedigree. I get the idea that you could still get to the best of the best--its pretty likely that Rock Creek was going to be very good based before it opened, but where do you draw the line in that type of situation?

David_Madison

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Re: 2008 Best New Courses - T&L Golf Mag
« Reply #19 on: November 08, 2008, 10:20:52 PM »
Matt Ward - - We (GD panelists) typically get our new course assignments in April and have until August to play and submit our results. That four month window isn't all that long, especially when the assigned courses are spread out and can include facilities that are upwards of a five-hour drive from home. The mountain courses have short seasons and some have lots of member events, so their availability doesn't necessarily mesh with when I can get there. A remote course opening in July could very well not get ten panelists there in time.

And comments like "the people who are panelists aren't exactly hurting" are likely misinformed and I feel inappropriate. I've read much of what you've had to say in this forum and respect your opinions and insights on golf course related topics. But comments about my financial condition or that of other panelists, especially right now, are unnecessary at best.

Carl Nichols

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Re: 2008 Best New Courses - T&L Golf Mag
« Reply #20 on: November 09, 2008, 08:30:07 AM »
Oliver Stone?   :o

Philippe Binette

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Re: 2008 Best New Courses - T&L Golf Mag
« Reply #21 on: November 09, 2008, 08:46:11 AM »

Matt_Ward

Re: 2008 Best New Courses - T&L Golf Mag
« Reply #22 on: November 09, 2008, 10:07:10 AM »
David:

Please don't have me shed tears for the "demands" panelists are under. I was one and know that there's a tremendous upside -- you do get access -- far more than the average Joe and Jane. Real time info is essential in today's world -- there are few, if any, hidden gems that are out of site. Publications used to be able to include courses with a greater amount of lag time in the past because so little info was available about them when they opened or even in the pre-opening planning process. That doesn't happen anymore.

I am fully aware of the short season and time frames you mentioned.  David, how many panelists does Digest have now? It's over 800 throughout the USA. My God man, that's a Roman army. I've been to the mountain time zone plenty of times -- I'm coming from a nearby state like NJ  ;D and when places like Tetherow and Rock Creek are on the plate and they have clearly opened in '08 -- they need to be rated with that year in mind.

Bumping back courses only confuses the courses from the year previous with the ones that actually open in the year ahead.

I'll say this again, in the event you missed it, but there are "key" courses which will have plenty of buzz surrounding them as they are ready to come to open -- it should not be such a difficulty for any key magazine -- particularly those that PROCLAIM they are the BEST in the business -- to have the coverage its loyal subscribers demand. If there's a logistical issue the issue is with the magazine itself -- I as a reader should not have to be treated like a secondary consideration -- especially when I'm reading about such info on such courses from other sources. If the magazines that proclaim their pinnacle position can't back that claim up with timely reporting then frankly they cease, in my mind at least, to be relevant.

In regards to my final comment on the issues of finances. David, there are people in the USA who whould figuratively kill to be a panelist -- even if they had to pay the green fees at private clubs -- many of which the Digest raters are comped in their entirety. I walked the path you are walking now and candidly the so-called heartache people may be feeling is something I can relate to - but it's part and parcel of being a panelist that you can travel as needed to any part of the USA to be an efffective contributor. If you took to heart what I meant personally, that was not my intent.

Andy:

C'mon please -- to substitute the flawed process GW follows and say Digest is that much better is not an answer. These are two publications which loudly proclaim their chest beating as the ones that give the avid golfer news and info they demand.

I don't see GW being helpful when a place like Ravenna in CO is delayed and pushed back BECAUSE of MAGAZINE related mechanics. The same situation happened a number of years back Andy when The Kingsley Club came on the scene and Digest decided to hold back on its newness for nearly two years!

Rock Creek and Tetherow are two GLARING examples of courses that should be assessed for '08. As I said to David above -- we live in a real time universe -- in years past you could get away with such delays because so few people were in an equal or greater position than the magazines are today. That's not the case now.

I don't buy magazines to tell me what I already know.

I buy them because they ADD TO what I know. 

Holding back on such ratings hurts the readers of these pubs when they can get other info sources to illustrate what's now available.

Andy, you mentioned the conditioining aspect of FMR. That's not the issue. The course OPENED in plenty of time for '08 -- the conditioning aspect is not a central element in its assessment for Best New consideration. No doubt keen raters like yourself and David would understand that and apply the appropriate rating numbers.

In regards to the lesser known courses -- it doesn't take sleuth ability of the Sherlock Holmes kind to do one's own due diligence on where the lesser known, but highly touted, courses are coming forward. I developed, as have other past raters and current ones, a slew of key contacts to keep them up to date on what is happening. The buzz line of info is there for those who want to keep their ears open to such circumstances.

One last point -- the so-called "different rules" only admits the actual reality of the situation. If Tom Doak comes out with a course it's big time news. If Matt Ward were to design a course it's a far lesser situation. That's reality. Please don't think that lesser name courses should be avoided. I've been touting them and the architects who design them for many years. But, no magazine should miss the low hanging fruit of the pre-buzz courses that are set to open or have already opened.

Andy, if someone occupies a ley editorial position at a big time magazine getting alerts out to the key raters is a very easy thing to do. Like I said before we live in the jet age -- not the stage coach one.

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