[Jon Spaulding]

I had "intended" to put up photos of the Creek Club for some time now.....but Paul Thomas' thread inspired me to finally get on this! 

Underrated? Probably not. It sits towards the bottom of GW Classics list, which seems appropriate (it is better than the hatchet job over at #77 Bel Air). Underdiscussed, underexposed? Absolutely! Given all the discussion about MacRaynor courses, have been surprised that this rarely/never comes up on this site or in general circles.

Before seeing it in person, rumor had it that 1-5 very weak, 6-16 very good, disappointing close. I generally agree, with the exception of the opening sequence. The greens on 1 & 2 were very good (#1’s slope reminded me of a baby version of #8 Yale), #4 was a very solid Eden, and #5 featured a solid tee shot, skyline green, and bold bunkering.

Then we step on the tee of #6…..wow! From this point until #16 green is as advertised. Just extremely solid golf in a setting that is rivaled by few in the US. #6, 8, 9, 11, 15 are must-see holes for those interested in gca. In a negative sense, there’s very little to discuss in this section of the course, other than some nitpicky MacRaynor stuff that only exists for those looking to compare to other MacRaynor templates. Comments would be the lack of depth/fear on the Redan bunker, the oft-discussed lack of swale on the Biarritz, couple of other things. The finish is a bit weak as noted in the other thread. #17 short lacks bunker depth and internal green contours. #18 is uninspired, but is effective in getting the player up the hill to the clubhouse.

Overall, The weak holes are more than made up for by the strength of the good holes, the setting and ultimately the overall experience . I would score it a Doak 7.5 (if 1/2 points are not allowed, round up to a Doak 8.

#1 green


#2 approach

#3 approach

#4 Eden


#5 tee shot

#5 approach

#5 green!


#6 tee shot

#6 approach

#6 greenside bunker

#6 green


#7 approach

#8 Redan


#9 approach

#10 tee shot

#11 Biarritz


#12

#13


#15


#16


Some guy was nagging me and then made this putt from the back of 16 green!

#17 Short


#18

[David Stamm]

Jon, did you have a pic from the the 18th green looking back as the sun was setting? It looked really cool when the sunlight was highlighting the 17th green and the rest of the course was in shadow.

[PThomas]

thanks for posting Jon...i'm still not sure how to post pictures here yet

[Tom Naccarato]

That Raynor sure was a "hack" architect. Look at all that artificiality..... 

Still, I'm sure you guys managed to still have a good time golfing your ball. Of course, then again you just had to realize while out there that one of your playing partner's head was about to explode.......

[John Mayhugh]

Jon, did you have a pic from the the 18th green looking back as the sun was setting? It looked really cool when the sunlight was highlighting the 17th green and the rest of the course was in shadow.

This what you had in mind?

[David Stamm]

That's the one! Thanks John! I just thought that looked really cool when the round was finished.


BTW, Tom, the head remained intact, but was erupting.

[Tom Naccarato]

That's because you didn't get to see the other courses a little further down the island....

[Peter Pallotta]

That Raynor sure was a "hack" architect. Look at all that artificiality..... 

Still, I'm sure you guys managed to still have a good time golfing your ball. Of course, then again you just had to realize while out there that one of your playing partner's head was about to explode.......

Tom - an obvious thought, but one that just struck me with your post - i.e. I've played quite a few modern courses that were clearly suppossed to be natural looking, but that for a host of reasons looked to me a lot more artificial than the work the great artificer Raynor did there at the Creek Club. 

Maybe it's because the premium placed on routing in the old days, both for philosophical and practical reasons, didn't get fully resurrected (even with the rennaissance) -- so that you get with Raynor artifical features that nonetheless fit beautifully into the larger landscape/surrounds, while today you sometimes get natural looking features that cease looking natural the moment you happen to peer past the fence line to the surrounding countryside

It's like the field of play was paramount then and now, but Raynor had the talent (and/or the willingness and/or taste) to create an overall vista that was very pleasing to the eye, while today there seems to be actually less focus on the overall vista and more focus on naturalness strictly in the field of play

(Maybe it's just that most of the land/sites/surrounds are crappier and less interesting)...

Anyway - just thinking out loud...and not putting the quotation marks (" ") around many of the words I should have...

Peter
Thanks for posting, Jon
 

[PThomas]

That Raynor sure was a "hack" architect. Look at all that artificiality..... 

Still, I'm sure you guys managed to still have a good time golfing your ball. Of course, then again you just had to realize while out there that one of your playing partner's head was about to explode.......

Tom - an obvious thought, but one that just struck me with your post - i.e. I've played quite a few modern courses that were clearly suppossed to be natural looking, but that for a host of reasons looked to me a lot more artificial than the work the great artificer Raynor did there at the Creek Club. 

a VERY wise observation Peter

[Kyle Henderson]

Excellent work, Spaulds. Thanks for sharing. Looks like you had pristine weather conditions for most of your "Long Island Dream Golf Tour 2008."

Where do you rank the other courses you saw in N.Y. Doak-wise, as a comparison?

[John Foley]

Jon - Great pics.

Too bad you had to suffer through such abysmal conditions to play in.

Man, I wish us here in NY had weather as nice as those Californian's

[Tom Naccarato]

Peter,
I'm sure Jeff Richardson or Forrest Brauer will be able to comment on an entire myriad of issues of "That was then. This is now...." and that the "Old dead guys had it so much easier...." (quote marks included for superficiality) but they are striving to "Keep it classic" and in some cases, utilize the saying, "What is old, is new again...And better because we have far superior methods which to build it."

You know, it's exactly like what the GREAT Anton Ego said, "Not everyone can become a great artist, but a great artist can come from anywhere." Certainly at least a GREAT artist from the moribund town of Southampton, L.I. NY.

[SPDB]

 #5 featured a solid tee shot, skyline green, and bold bunkering.

#5 approach

#5 green!

I'm curious how you view #5 as a skyline green. It is not, as your pictures evidence.

This very question is the subject of a long running bet between me and Pat Mucci. I have won it several times over, and your pictures confirm my side of the bet, which is that the green is not a skyline.  Notwithstanding the clear evidence confirmed by your bet, Pat refuses to concede. In the past he has changed the terms of our bet, to what MacDonald intended, which despite not being the subject of our wager, is difficult if not impossible to improve without contemporaneous evidence.

Thanks for helping out.

[Tom Naccarato]

which despite not being the subject of our wager, is difficult if not impossible to improve without contemporaneous evidence.

Spoken like a true lawyer!

If I knew how to string two sentences together in Electric speak, I'd do it, but honestly, to come up with something at this juncture of the day--head buried into plans with a side trip off to see what was up with this website....Well its just not feasible at this moment...

Sean, Honestly, no. Today it isn't a skyline green, but surely someone might have an ancient picture or two to show those trees in the back ground didn't exist at one time, thus making it into a skyline green? (is the bone of contention here, that it was never intended as such?)

[David Stamm]

FWIW, I thought it was clearly a skyline. The trees were, I'm almost sure, not visible when first opened. The old photos in the men's lockeroom (which btw, is the coolest I've ever seen) show ALOT less trees on the periphery of the course, if memory serves.

[Adam Clayman]

Peter, If I may... The aspect I picked up on, looking at these photos, was how in the long shots, there are no features that are built up agin the flow of the property. But, in the close ups, the features are abrupt and are similar to what you'll see on many modern designs. What this highlights is not how the individual feature looks up close, but rather how it interacts with the whole. I believe this finer point is the crux of matters for those who harangue designers who are fortunate to work on specific courses, yet show no regard for what was apparently a fundamental at one time.

[Jon Spaulding]

 #5 featured a solid tee shot, skyline green, and bold bunkering.

I'm curious how you view #5 as a skyline green. It is not, as your pictures evidence.

This very question is the subject of a long running bet between me and Pat Mucci. I have won it several times over, and your pictures confirm my side of the bet, which is that the green is not a skyline.  Notwithstanding the clear evidence confirmed by your bet, Pat refuses to concede. In the past he has changed the terms of our bet, to what MacDonald intended, which despite not being the subject of our wager, is difficult if not impossible to improve without contemporaneous evidence.

Thanks for helping out.

Stuck in a compromising position between you and Mr. Mucci is not where I'd like to spend this weekend. From a normal distance tee shot, assuming tree height in 1923....I'd consider it a skyline.

[Jon Spaulding]

Excellent work, Spaulds. Thanks for sharing. Looks like you had pristine weather conditions for most of your "Long Island Dream Golf Tour 2008."

Where do you rank the other courses you saw in N.Y. Doak-wise, as a comparison?

assuming no 1/2 points allowed on the Doak scale:

GCGC - 9
Engineers - 8
Creek - 8
Maidstone - 9

[Kyle Henderson]

Excellent work, Spaulds. Thanks for sharing. Looks like you had pristine weather conditions for most of your "Long Island Dream Golf Tour 2008."

Where do you rank the other courses you saw in N.Y. Doak-wise, as a comparison?

assuming no 1/2 points allowed on the Doak scale:

GCGC - 9
Engineers - 8
Creek - 8
Maidstone - 9

Either you're an easier grader than I remember or that was one amazing trip!

What would you give El Niguel? Victoria? Harding Park (as we played it)? Pasa?

[Phil McDade]

Jon:

Great pics -- the Creek is one of those courses that flies under the radar, but looks to have much merit. I love the way the approach to the 5th deceives the golfer into thinking the green is much wider than it really is -- is is that deceptive-looking in person?

A question about the 5th -- in Ran's updated profile of Yale, he notes that downhill Redans need even bolder features, notably the kick-plate away from the fronting bunker, because downhill shots tend not to run as much. Can one play the 8th in a variety of ways, or is there little penalty for going straight at the flag?

Thanks agains for the pics...

[SPDB]

Stuck in a compromising position between you and Mr. Mucci is not where I'd like to spend this weekend. From a normal distance tee shot, assuming tree height in 1923....I'd consider it a skyline.




[/quote]

I assume you are right, but unfortunately for (i) Pat, that wasn't the bet, and (ii) you, you played the course in 2008. Therefore, I'm not sure how either of you can say it is a skyline green.

[Jon Spaulding]

Excellent work, Spaulds. Thanks for sharing. Looks like you had pristine weather conditions for most of your "Long Island Dream Golf Tour 2008."

Where do you rank the other courses you saw in N.Y. Doak-wise, as a comparison?

assuming no 1/2 points allowed on the Doak scale:

GCGC - 9
Engineers - 8
Creek - 8
Maidstone - 9

Either you're an easier grader than I remember or that was one amazing trip!

What would you give El Niguel? Victoria? Harding Park (as we played it)? Pasa?

ENCC - 5
VC - 6
Harding - 5 (worst greens ever)
Pasa - 8

Both Pasa and VC lose 1/2 point as decimals are not allowed.

[Jon Spaulding]

Jon:

Great pics -- the Creek is one of those courses that flies under the radar, but looks to have much merit. I love the way the approach to the 5th deceives the golfer into thinking the green is much wider than it really is -- is is that deceptive-looking in person?

A question about the 5th -- in Ran's updated profile of Yale, he notes that downhill Redans need even bolder features, notably the kick-plate away from the fronting bunker, because downhill shots tend not to run as much. Can one play the 8th in a variety of ways, or is there little penalty for going straight at the flag?

Thanks agains for the pics...

I didn't find the penalty for going at the pin severe as say a Piping Rock. The fronting bunker was far less deep. A couple of tee shots were hit directly at the pin and stopped beneath the hole. The slightly downhill, reverse redan version at the creek encourages a different ball flight with a mid-iron, so the variety would be based on how adventurous you want to be.

[Kyle Henderson]

Either you're an easier grader than I remember or that was one amazing trip!

What would you give El Niguel? Victoria? Harding Park (as we played it)? Pasa?

ENCC - 5
VC - 6
Harding - 5 (worst greens ever)
Pasa - 8

Both Pasa and VC lose 1/2 point as decimals are not allowed.
[/quote]

Spaulding says El Niguel is the equal of Harding Park! 
I have a feeling that under Pres Cup conditions you might reconsider.

Use decimals. I think it demonstrates considerable gravitas. Be a swashbuckler!

[Tom Naccarato]

Peter, If I may... The aspect I picked up on, looking at these photos, was how in the long shots, there are no features that are built up agin the flow of the property. But, in the close ups, the features are abrupt and are similar to what you'll see on many modern designs. What this highlights is not how the individual feature looks up close, but rather how it interacts with the whole. I believe this finer point is the crux of matters for those who harangue designers who are fortunate to work on specific courses, yet show no regard for what was apparently a fundamental at one time.

Oh, you mean the lack of containment mounding, pits with drains at the bottom of each of them designed not to just drain, but to contain; control; dominate and enhance the experience, etc. aka The Jeffrey D. Brauer-styled Catch Basin...

Yes, I agree.....

And then people wonder why it costs so much to build golf courses....

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