Modern Holes Repeated

[Anthony Gray]

   The Redan, Cape Hole, Biarritz, Etc. Greats of the Past

   Has anything new ( since 1980 ) been repeated?

  Is there anything since 1980 that is an original that we are seeing repeated today?

[Tony Ristola]

What has been repeated in modern times. Let's say since the early 1980's:

Island greens.
Cape styled finishing holes. You know dig a pond, wrap a hole around it.
Cape styled finishing holes with a double green at the end.

Three types of holes I hope never to do.

[Anthony Gray]

  Is 17 at Sawgrass an original?

[Eric Smith]

Suneagles (Tillinghast)

Number 17 originally was an island green par 3.  Mark Fine has more info on this.

[Adam Clayman]

Anthony, No, not in concept.
Plenty of golden age courses (and later) tried to utilize the island green. I can cite Eastmoreland in Portland, The el Capitan in Howey-in-the-hills, Florida and Oyster Bay in Myrtle as a few.
Now, Pete's version is plenty controversial and a fairly unique application of that concept. BTW, That's a good thing.

[Scott Sander]

Plenty of golden age courses (and later) tried to utilize the island green. I can cite Eastmoreland in Portland, The el Capitan in Howey-in-the-hills, Florida and Oyster Bay in Myrtle as a few.

Cherry Hills is another...

[PCCraig]

Every Tom Fazio Hole?

[Jason Topp]

The toilet seat appears at many Coore/Crenshaw courses:



There was a thread on these greens at one time.

I also have heard Tommy describe the bunkering on Fazio greens to be extremely repetitive.  I'm not sure what the characteristics are.

[Joel_Stewart]

Kyle Phillips just built a pretty good cape hole at California Golf Club.

[Bill_McBride]

Kyle Phillips just built a pretty good cape hole at California Golf Club.

Joel, which hole?  Did he completely reroute the course?

[Tony Ristola]

Anthony,

While not original, TPC's 17th rebooted the concept to horrific proportions.

I think the Cape-style finishing hole at TPC did the same. You can find the concept from Palm Springs to Bangkok, Berlin and back.

The mounding craze too.

Quite a feat for one course.

[Ronald Montesano]

The 9th at Blackwolf Run (http://www.destinationkohler.com/golf/bwr/river_detail.html) and the 11th at Thundering Waters (http://www.thunderingwaters.com/swf/course.html) stick in my mind as nearly identical.  Dogleg right, short par fours that work around a focal tree or trees.  Your play is either left and safe to a longer approach or over the tree/right of the tree, bringing the water into play, for a short approach or a driven green.

[John Moore II]

I can agree, the first hole to come to mind was the Island, though none have been replicated as good as the original. And now that you mention it, the Cape, or even a long dogleg, finishing hole is fairly well used. Without going back and running through all the courses in Pinehurst, I would say that the majority of them have dogleg par 4 finishing holes, at least among courses built recently. The "conjoined" green concept has come into use as well (meaning greens connected by a small sliver of land rather than the double green concept seen at TOC)

[Jeff_Brauer]

Not built much any more, but for a while, the RTJ (or Dick Wilson) bottleneck of bunkers at the turning point was pretty much a standard.  Of course, not originated after 1980.

The driveable par 4 has some variation, but is kind of a standard.

Is the real long par 3 to tightly guarded green (to force good players to hit a long iron) becoming a standard?

[Tom_Doak]

You guys aren't trying hard on this thread.  There are LOTS of holes being repeated by architects.

Tom Fazio has a par-3 next to the water which he builds over and over again ... it's the 17th at The Glen Club; I've blocked out some of the others right now, but I'm pretty sure I saw the same hole at Pinehurst #4 (from a distance).

Jack Nicklaus has his short par-5 with the button-hook peninsula green coming back out into the lake and surrounded on three sides by water.  (A couple of times, it's even an island green.)  I think I first saw it at Loxahatchee 20 years ago, it's at The Bear in Michigan, and numerous others ... I even saw it in South Korea last week.  And that's not to mention the whole "Bear's Best" concept.

Coore and Crenshaw's favorite is the 8th green at Sand Hills, depicted above ... also found on the 11th at East Hampton, and at least 3-4 others that I've blocked out right now.  Friars Head gets kudos for not having this green.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike Strantz, RIP, repeated the ultra long (or wide) green many times.

While technically not new, many gca's (including yours truly) have seemingly made the Raynor Prize Dogleg with the short cut fw an oft repeated hole.

Dye also did the short 4 along the pond with the blinding mound at Long Cove and others.  What about holes with long strip bunkers?  Oddly, Pete didn't (that I have seen) replicate his most unique green - the T shaped 13th (?) at Harbor Town.

I wouldn't place the water par 3 totally at TF's feet - most of us do that one.  However, at the Glen Club, I think he actually has two of them on the course!  To be fair, his 6th(?) with its high front pin position and lower back left is unique at the same time.

[TX Golf]

Bill,

It is the new 7th hole.... which is a "cape style" par four built on top of the previously cover hill between the old 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th. The only original holes on the front 9 are the 1st, the old 6th (new 5th), old 7th (new 6th) and the ninth. If I can find a picture i'll send it to you. The back nine has the same routing.
 
Robert

[Tom Huckaby]

Bill,

It is the new 7th hole.... which is a "cape style" par four built on top of the previously cover hill between the old 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th. The only original holes on the front 9 are the 1st, the old 6th (new 5th), old 7th (new 6th) and the ninth. If I can find a picture i'll send it to you. The back nine has the same routing.
 
Robert

Please do post a pic, Robert.  That hole is pretty damn impossible to do justice to in words.

VERY heroic tee-shot; "16 Cypress on a par 4" kinda heroic.  Very fun hole but definitely controversial; in my group two loved it, two hated it.  It was 50/50 for the larger group in discussions afterward.

Excellent green also - very very tricky.

TH

[Eric_Terhorst]

Tom Fazio has a par-3 next to the water which he builds over and over again ... it's the 17th at The Glen Club

The basic template Tom refers to is used TWICE at the Glen Club, Glenview, IL.  From the overhead view I guess it could be called the Bare Footprint hole

11th hole diagram  ~215 yd par 3


11th hole scenic view


17th hole diagram ~180 yd par 3


17th hole scenic view

[TX Golf]

Unfortunately I don't have any pictures of the tee shot, which really gives a perspective of the options that are present off of the tee. If there is a breeze at your back there is even a possibility to get the ball up by the green if you want to give it a rip and take the chance of flirting with the hillside and all of the bunkers. The front of the green slopes away from the player, really bringing in the option of landing the ball short of the green and running it up.

I personally think it is extremely fun and was a great addition to the course.


This is the photo found in one of the previous threads.


This is another picture... the actual landing zone for the tee shot is about 50 yards past where the photo is taken from.


This is from the left side of the green.

[Tom Huckaby]

Robert - excellent!  But darn, to really get the flavor of it you do need a pic taken from the tee.  It is one epic tee shot and the choice of line is quite revelatory of the state of one's game.

 

I love the hole also.  I don't remember enough about the course as it was to say for sure, but if this isn't a great addition I'd be very very surprised.

TH

[BCrosby]

What this thread suggests to me is how rarely holes are EVER repeated.

If you take MacD/Raynor/Banks out of the equation, my guess is that the frequency of repeat holes today is about the same as it was during the GA. Which is to say, pretty infrequent.

MacD/Raynor/Banks were anomalies.

The other issue this thread raises is what exactly is being repeated? It's one thing to repeat similar hole features/dimensions/looks (See Raynor) course after course.

But basic design concepts are also repeated ad infinitum. People have built a lot of "Heroic" par 5's, for example. These hole don't look much alike. Employing the same basic design concepts is not literally "repeating" a hole the way Raynor did. But it is nonetheless the repetition of a finite number of basic design concepts.  


Bob

[Bill_McBride]

Bill,

It is the new 7th hole.... which is a "cape style" par four built on top of the previously cover hill between the old 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th. The only original holes on the front 9 are the 1st, the old 6th (new 5th), old 7th (new 6th) and the ninth. If I can find a picture i'll send it to you. The back nine has the same routing.
 
Robert

What was the hole that turned up the hill and went straight up - #5, 6 or 7?  I am very fuzzy about the routing of the California Club and guess that's okay if it's all new!

[Ken Moum]

Tom Fazio has a par-3 next to the water which he builds over and over again ... it's the 17th at The Glen Club

The basic template Tom refers to is used TWICE at the Glen Club, Glenview, IL.  From the overhead view I guess it could be called the Bare Footprint hole

It appears that #5 and #17 at Osprey Ridge are a left and right foot as well.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Coore and Crenshaw's favorite is the 8th green at Sand Hills, depicted above ... also found on the 11th at East Hampton, and at least 3-4 others that I've blocked out right now.  Friars Head gets kudos for not having this green.

Tom,

The 12th at Chechessee Creek features a version of the green concept exemplified at the 8th at Sand Hills and the 11th at East Hampton, too. And, I say the 5th at Friar's Head is very close in concept as well... with some neat contour substituted for the fronting bunker.