[John Kavanaugh]

US Opens held on public courses must not use composite courses.  Once you create a layout that can only be played during special events for VIP's you lose the beauty of a People's Open.

[Jay Flemma]

My vote is a tie between two layouts ...

WF / W &

Oakmont

Getting a birdie, especially on the first choice above is especially demanding. Just witness what happened in the '06 US Open.

Nuff said ...

I agree, but will add 18 at Oakland Hills as well...ignore what the par on the scorecard is, it's even more of a half-par hole than WFW or OKMT, my other two faves.

Good choices Matty.

I also agree with Kav, I wouldn't like the idea of a composite course.

[Matt_Ward]

Jay:

Keep in mind, OH/S's 18th was designed originally to be a par-5. The ones I mentioned were par-4's from the get go.

[Jay Flemma]

Jay:

Keep in mind, OH/S's 18th was designed originally to be a par-5. The ones I mentioned were par-4's from the get go.

Who cares what the number is? It's how it plays.  It plays every bit of a 4.5 since you have to hit the best drive of the day, then the best second shot.

Now I agree, that they have too much rough there and the landing area is too small, but forget tournament set-up, it's a terrific finish.

[Matt_Ward]

Jay:

Open your eyes and mind on this one -- the green at OH/S was originally built to entertain short approach. The slope of the fairway also demonstrates that getting into a solid position for a second shot to the green was not really in the cards for just about all players.

The card says par-4 but it's nothing more than a contrivance to have it play as one.

Major difference between the hole in MI and the ones I mentioned in PA and NY.

Just keep that in mind.

[John Kavanaugh]

US Opens held on public courses must not use composite courses.  Once you create a layout that can only be played during special events for VIP's you lose the beauty of a People's Open.

you're stretching on this one Barney... but I think you already know that.

Not at all.  When I played Torrey, while you and the other Golfweek raters sat in your ivory tower sipping wine declaring the course unworthy without giving it a play, I had a great time playing the ugly, poor and foul smelling 18th which of course led to much drama in the recent US Open and other tournaments.  I was and am not interested in playing 17 holes of a US Open course and then imagining how the other hole must play.  My experience at Torrey would be far less than half as good with even one hole missing, most specifically the 18th.  

[Kyle Harris]

I'm with John on this one.

It's one of the many reasons I'm opposed to the changes made to the Black Course since the 2002 US Open.

[Jay Flemma]

Jay:

the green at OH/S was originally built to entertain short approach. The slope of the fairway also demonstrates that getting into a solid position for a second shot to the green was not really in the cards for just about all players.

Of course...but the 72d hole at the US Open is the VERY BEST players under the fiercest crucible.  I'm not saying it's good all the time for golf in general, but it's a compelling finish to a major.

If there's one thing Oakland Hills has always had, it's excitement. (Except thurs and fri of this year when they over did it with the setup).

[Dean Stokes]

Wayne,

Yes on both accounts... His first name was Steve, and he was my oldest brother... I actually witnessed his drive on 18 on the Black. He FLEW it on the green from the 350- yard tee. It was in June of 1989 and he used a steel-shafted persimmon driver...

What was the wind reading that day Phillip?

350, slightly uphill, no roll, balata ball, persimmon head with steel shaft. That is massive under any circumstances. Probably akin today to a 420 yard carry.

[David_Elvins]

Kyle,

Nice thread.

I like the look of 18 Red but for a US Open...by the time Rees Jones finished with it, it would probably look a lot like 18 Black.

[Phil_the_Author]

Dean,

You asked, "What was the wind reading that day Phillip?"

Dead calm. Few if anyone ever hit a golf ball further. Just ask John Daly as he played a fun pro-am with him in El Paso the year before his PGA Championship. Even though Steve was 20+ years older they were within 5 yards of each other all day.

[Jay Flemma]

BY the way, Kyle, congrats to the Nittany Lions and nice "Battle of Epping Forest" quotes in your tag line.

Still, I'd switch it to Selling England by the Pound...or perhaps something off Junta...

UB40!    UB40!

[Matt_Ward]

Kyle:

Good take on what has happened to BB recently.

The course lacks any real superlative short hole -- and the 18th could have been re-designed to be that one. Unfortunately, you get this ugly closer which is really a big time letdown.

The focus on the Black in prep work for the '09 US Open is to simply add more length and overall difficulty. The course did well in '02 and should have made moves to add a winning finesse hole in the process.

The 18th could have provided that as a short par-4 that really accentuated the Tillie flavor. Instead, you get this monstrosity of a hole.  Mike Cirba is 100% on target the exising hole is a "Rees Jones does Salvatore Dali" version.

[Phil_the_Author]

Guys,

I've been SOOOOOOO good and my tongue is now bitten about half-way through... but I will refrain... I will... I will... I will...

AHHHHHHHHH! The heck with it!

Matt... Tilly DID design a great drivable par-4 at Bethpage. It is the 5th hole of the original Blue Course!

The plans for the 18th as originally designed was to have the hillside cut partly away and a drainage pond to be at the bottom of the base of the hill. This wasn't done for a variety of reasons.

Whether one likes the groupings of bunkers in the rough on both sides of the fairway or not, at least stop attacking Rees. He did nothing more than recreate what TILLY designed and built there. Take a look at the 1938 aerial hanging in the corridor clubhouse and you'll see them in all their glory. As far as the green complex itself, the new shape and bunker scheme is a vast improvement (my opinion) over the unprotected ovoid that was there before. That there were only 6 holes that played to a higher score against par during the 2002 Open also attests to how challenging it can play.

The changes to the course from 2002 until now have been the result of input from a number of sources and people including ME. They are NOT the product of one person. Each change (with the exception of the 14th green) has it's pros and cons.

There have been three changes made that they (Bethpage) were asked not to but were made anyway. This, of course, just as at any club, is the Park's prerogative to do. Before you ask, I will not specify what they are. I will only say to watch the 2009 Open very carefully and see if they are features that either come into play or aren't used.

Man, my tongue feels much better now... back to biting it...

[Mike Hendren]

CB's Bottle Hole is highly acclaimed by the cognoscenti while Rees' Bottle Hole is panned by the same august group.  Is the strategy not the same?  Please enlighten me.

Mike

[Phil_the_Author]

MIke,

You raise an interesting point; just remember that it was Tilly who designed the clusters of bunkers initially and Rees who simply brought them back...

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