[Adrian_Stiff]

I found an old plan today in a book that showed the 1887 routing:
Whilst it showed the right hand circuit what was interesting was the fact that holes 7 & 12 were over the exact same ground and the 7th green was where the 11th is today and the 11th green more where the 7th is. The 4th was more down the 15th as well and the 14th and 5th were more down the middle, there was virtually no 6th fairway as we know it, so perhaps the 6th green is much newer as the 6th green was more where 12 is today...it also has early routings of Hoylake and Westward Ho which seems to have hardly any of todays holes.

[Pete_Pittock]

Any chance you can take a photo and post the plan? Where would the 11th tee have been?

[Scott Macpherson]

HI Adrian,

I always have a tingle of excitement when somebody posts about the Old Course in dear old St Andrews.

Where did you find your plan? What book/ publication?

It sounds identical to the 1892 plan in my book (page 40, for those who have it). There has been a lot of changes at TOC over the years- and that 'corner' is no exception. There is also a 'winter green' out there (just West of the current 12th tees) that some plans have the 11th hole playing to. These are just differences.

As regards the 6th green. It is not so much 'new', like when Old Tom built the current 1st and 18th greens, the right side has just crept further right over time. This has happened to most of the greens.

Glad you got excited about it. It is pretty interesting, and influential stuff.

Scott

[Adrian_Stiff]

I found the plan in the book "The Golf Annual" 1887, its the first year the annual came out, there are a few pages on St Andrews...as we know the course even the right handed way was much more up the left. The third tee was more to the left of the second green, same with the 4th, the 5th/13th green was 60 yards x 40, the 14th was much more on the 5th fairway than today and 6th played pretty much straight to the 12th green. The 7th played back up 12 to the 11th green but I can decifer if the 8th (even in the modern routing was played to the section we know as 10th green) also 9 seems to be played over the exact same ground as 10 and possibly 11 is even 8 backwards. So pretty much what you say Scott seems to conclude with this plan... There is no halketts bunker on the 18th in this 1887 so I presume it had a pretty short life... I will try and photo it and email the JPEG.

[Bill_McBride]

One thing that makes the Old Course so unique is the opportunity to play it in reverse.  The Links Trust does a great job of setting it up for the annual event in late March/early April.  Any true lover of the Old should try to do this sometime in his/her life.

Was the course always set up so that play could go in both directions?

[Jon Wiggett]

Bill,

I think you will find that originaly you played out and back to the same greens/hole and along the same fairways. This was abandoned as the course became more popular for safety reasons.

[Adrian_Stiff]

One thing that makes the Old Course so unique is the opportunity to play it in reverse.  The Links Trust does a great job of setting it up for the annual event in late March/early April.  Any true lover of the Old should try to do this sometime in his/her life.

Was the course always set up so that play could go in both directions?

Bill- In 1887 the course was set up to change weekly, ie one week left circuit next week right, I think the 1885 Open was played over the reverse course, however I am not sure there is much difference between the left or right circuits in the earlier days because of the narrowness. I can remember that up to the early 70s they used to play the reverse layout in one of the winter months to rest it, I think that stopped in say 1973 I dont think the reverse course was then played until say 5 years ago when they do the spring package. Todays reverse layout is not really a true reflection in several places, I think todays as played 12 and 13 in reverse were not the original intent.

[Scott Macpherson]

HI Adrian,

It is a common myth that an Open Championship was played on the left hand course (reverse course). It never was, but one Amateur Championship was- by mistake. From memory that was in 1886 and Horace Hutchinson won. (that's in my book somewhere too)

cheers,

scott

[Adrian_Stiff]

Scott, do you agree that todays reverse course in respect of 'to the 12 and 13'... ie to the 6th green and to the 5th green coming in are incorrect?
If you look at the 5th/13th as a double it does not sit so correctly as the other doubles being more edge on. The area infront of the now 6th tees could also suggest than the course in reverse would see the pins for 5 & 13 in there same positions left or right circuit. I think I remember someone saying 12 was the same hole in both circuits.

[Melvyn Morrow]

My understanding is that after the construction of the 1st Green by Old Tom the course rendered itself playable in both directions. Reversible option became available and was used on alternative weeks, although the bunkers are more in tune to catch those on the left hand circuit (clockwise play).

Scott is correct, the course was played in reverse as they forgot the change the day flags etc the day before. A simple oversight but to late to correct once noticed.

TOC undertook many changes from the mid 1850 to the early 1900’s, initially under Allan Robertson then the major modifications by Old Tom. By the end of Old Tom’s era the Green Committees (who by then actually consisted of experienced golfers) started taking control of their courses rather than allow their Green Keeper free reign.

To paraphrase one of our greats, ‘Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning’ of our modern age of golf.

[Bill_McBride]

I had heard vaguely about the reverse course over the years of idle reading about the Old Course, but I saw examples during the 2005 Open Championship.  One day we were sitting in the bleachers at the 14th green - where I was fuming about the fact that Hell Bunker played absolutely no part in the strategy (what strategy?) of the hole - when I looked toward the Elysian Fields and saw a bunker set into the hillside there close ahead! 

"What the hell is that bunker doing over there?" I asked myself.  And then it dawned on me, epiphany fashion, "that bunker is in play on the reverse course!"   

The 12th reverse hole - played to the 6th green - was unusual in that the approach shot had to be played over a mountain of gorse.  With any kind of tee shot this wasn't a problem, but it did seem completely out of style with the rest of the course as no running approach was possible.

[Scott Macpherson]

Bill the current 17th and 12th, when played backwards, are two great holes on the reverse course, and so is the 14th backwards. Worth playing if you can ever make it back.

scott

[Adrian_Stiff]

Bill the current 17th and 12th, when played backwards, are two great holes on the reverse course, and so is the 14th backwards. Worth playing if you can ever make it back.

scott

It is all confusing with the numbering, but surely you mean the reverse 12th is a bad hole, the reverse 7th is the great hole, and yes the reverse 14th is a great hole as well, in regard to the reverse 12th it should surely just be the same hole and the reverse 13th should play to the 13th green part and equally the reverse 5th should still putt out on the 5th green part, I am sure this was the proper reverse.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill the current 17th and 12th, when played backwards, are two great holes on the reverse course, and so is the 14th backwards. Worth playing if you can ever make it back.

scott

Scott, I played the reverse in late March 2007.  It was great fun indeed.  If by reverse 12 you mean from the 13th tee to the 11th green, yes, that was an awesome hole, particularly into a gale!  Hill bunker is a formidable carry bunker.

#17 played backward (18th tee to 16th green) is LONG and the bunker behind the 16/2nd green is daunting from that angle.  It definitely played like a par 5 for us.

The Old Course program is highly recommended.  For a couple hundred quid, you get to play a round each on the Old, New or Jubilee, and Old reverse.

[Scott Macpherson]

Bill, yes, those were the holes I was referring too.

I also like the hole from 15th tee to the 13th green. I try to play it by going up to the Elysian Fields, but it is not the best way if you want to make birdie.... but it is the most fun.

s

[Bill_McBride]

One further thought on the reverse 12th (13th tee to 11th green) - all those bunkers you can't see from the 12th tee?  Plainly in sight looking backwards!  That's one of the things about the reverse, what's invisible from one direction is frightening from the other!

[Chris Moore]

This is a fascinating thread.  I have played the Old Course just enough to be able to imagine most of these holes.  Are there any holes that just do not work in reverse or are truly bad as reversed?

[Scott Macpherson]

Chris,

I found, perhaps the least satisfying the hole playing from a 'new tee' in the middle of the rough on a line between the current 8th tee and 8th green to the current 6th green. You kind of play back down the 7th hole in reverse, but both the tee shot and the approach shot are blind.

On a more positive note though, the first hole is a good one. Playing from the 1st tee to the 17th green. The approach shot is particularly nerve racking.....

s

[Adrian_Stiff]

The reverse 12th (to the 6th green) is the only real bad one, the reverse 17th (to the 1st green) is not great either but I really dont think either were originally part of the older reversed routing. Plus the 5th/13th green relationship would surely suggest that the reverse 5th would not play to the 13th green and equally the reverse 13th would not play to the 5th green which the todays reverse course does.

[Bill_McBride]

Chris, I thought every one of the reverse holes was pretty good.  The first approach shot of the day is a sphincter tightener of the first order, a short iron from the 18th fairway to the 17th green  with the Road bunker and steep slope on the right and the road left.  The green opening looks about 10' wide!  I bailed right and then putted over the green onto the road, smooth 6.

The home hole (2nd tee to 18th green) is longer enough than normal #18 to satisfy even the harshest critics of #18.  I hit 4 wood into the wind, very happy to hit the green and pocket a par.

The play from 12th tee (behind normal #11 green) to normal #10 green is a long iron into the wind, much more difficult than #8 normal routing but parallel to the right.  The reverse 9th and 10th weren't much different than normal 9 and 10 if I recall.

Check out the "In My Opinion" pieces for Jeremy Glenn's interesting article about how the reverse routing could be improved.  I don't think the Links Trust followed his advice at all, but it still was a fun exercise.  They did a good of reorganizing all the tees and paraphenalia.  There was only one non-standard tee, out in front of #8 green and I believe used for the tee for the reverse #12 hole that plays over gorse to the regular #6 green.

It may be too late to sign up for the March 2009 program, but given the current economy they may have some slots.  And the quid gets more attractive every day.......

[Jason Topp]

For those of you that have not read the descrption of the reverse course by Jeremy Glenn, this is one of my favorite things I have read on this site:


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/opinionglenn3.html

[Tony_Muldoon]

I have never been to St Andrews and I really want to before the next Open there in July 2010.   If anyone else might be interested in the three day event in March that year IM me and I'll start a thread next summer.

Tony

[Scott Macpherson]

Tony,

Make sure you do some research before booking your trip. Those who lay the course in March usually have to play off mats, and in the year of the Open, they may just close TOC until the Open itself.

I hate the way TOC is treated like a museum, but it seems to be more and more accepted 

NB- It was cool last year. The week before the Women's British Open you could still play the Old Course, and it was in the best condition I had ever played it!

[Bill_McBride]

Scott, I was at the reverse Old Course program(me) in late March 2007, there were no mats in evidence and in fact the courses - we played Old and New - were in good nick.

[Scott Macpherson]

Bill,

That's because the locals had being playing on mats all winter (since about November 2006) and the week of the Reverse course opening (when you got there) is about when the mats are removed from use.

My point to Tony is that in 2010 the Links Trust, in partnership with the R&A, may decide that mats must be used through to when the course closes in preparation for the Open Championship. I advise that he, and anyone else hoping to play TOC in 2010, do some research to avoid a disappointing experience on the worlds greatest course (IMHO).

scott


scott

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()