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TEPaul

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #175 on: October 26, 2008, 10:18:17 PM »
Removed---it's not worth it!
« Last Edit: October 26, 2008, 11:03:22 PM by TEPaul »

Thomas MacWood

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #176 on: October 26, 2008, 10:33:07 PM »
TMac (please, you really should reconsider continually making grave remarks, as they are very tired and don't reflect well upon you),

This photo is also from that January 1913 "Far and Sure" The American Golfer article:




Joe
Did you think TE and Wayne's original banter about the incedent reflected well on them? I don't recall you saying anything.

Phil_the_Author

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #177 on: October 27, 2008, 12:14:51 AM »
As I just arrived home after a wonderful trip to New York, I can see that it is just in time as someone needs to reign in the rampant insanity that has been running amok on this thread. Unfortunately, It'll have to wait until tomorrow afternoon as I've much to do before then.

There are several small points that I would like to clarify for evryone. First, Tom Paul quoted Bob Labbance when he wrote, "He (Travis) lined up regional correspondents to cover events in as many locales as he could, and to protect them from the scrutiny of the amateur versus professional hawkers, gave them all a pseudonym. It was "Lochinvar" covering the Western region. "Bunker Hill" handled New England. "Hazard" held court around Philadelphia. "Buckeye" reported from Ohio. Both "The Judge" and "The Colonel" issues reports from the South. "Far and Sure" was in Eastern Pennsylvania; "William Pitt" was in the Western part.. "Argonaut" detailed the Pacific news, and "A Sufferer", "The Duffer," "The Philospher," and "Westward Ho!" all submitted to the magazine from time to time. The identities of some of the correspondents and columnists remain a mystery yet today, prompting some to speculate that whenever it suited his fancy, Travis took on another name and let the doctrine fly."

Tom, you seem to have taken this to me that these names were just used whenever the whim struck Travis and that they aren't SPECIFIC individuals. That is incorrect. First note that Bob didn't state that these identities remain a mystery, he said that "SOME of the correspondents and columnists..." SOME meaning that the pen names were specific to certain people, not all of whom can be identified.

He also didn't state that Travis used numerous names, but rather that "SOME" speculated this.

An example of a name and who it is is "Duffer." This is B.C. Tillinghast, Tilly's dad. We know this because in 1918 when he died, Tilly wrote an article about his passing in which he stated that "Duffer" was his father, that he had written almost every poem published in the "Hazard" columns and that his father had been the person behind the scenes gathering the local information for Tilly who spent a GREAT DEAL of time traveling around the country during the years that he was writing the American Golfer "Hazard" articles! Though not specifically stated, B.C. "Duffer" Tillinghast most likely gathered information about golf in the entire region for several of the writers. That is probably why there are similarities in information reported. It is this similarity in information that has been mistakenly, in my opinion, interpreted as similarity in style. One brief example of this is: 

"Last year I met Mr. Macdonald at Garden City and he was quite enthusiastic regarding the great possibilities at Haverford.   In his opinion, it will eventually be one of the very best inland courses in America."  -  A.W Tillinghast, Philadelphia Record, May, 1912

"Two years ago, Mr. Chas. B. Macdonald, who has been of great assistance in an advisory way, told me that Merion would have one of the best inland courses he had ever seen..." - "Far and Sure", January 1913

Really now, isn't this just two different reporters being given the same quote by C.B. at right about the same time? Isn't that EXACTLY what happens today? How many times has Tom Doak been asked for a quote about Sebonac? Do you really think that he doesn't have pat answers that he gives to one and all? That the same answer is then written by two or more reporters certainly doesn't suggest either plaigerism or that the same person has written for numerous publications. It is simply that they were given the same answer...

Now Mike also mentions the reporting of Tilly's song parodies at the GAP dinner. he asks, "Now, does anyone out there really believe that if the author wasn't Mr. Tillinghast that he would produce this level of detail of someone else's song parodies?!?..." The answer is YES!

"Would any other reporter have done this??" Again, the answer is YES!

"No, this was clearly Tillinghast, and clearly amused with his own creativity, and wanting to share his little ditties with the larger golfing world..." Sorry Mike, but your reasoning is based upon faulty understanding of both the event and who was there, for there was another correspondent of the American Golfer who was there and who would not only have copied Tilly's "ditty'd" wor for word, but would have had them BEFOREHAND, with the possible exception of the last one, because that one was written about the man Tilly loved most in the world, Dufferoo himself, B.C. Tillinghast!

The problem with this thread is that too many jumps of faith have been made rather than doing the real legwork to connect properly.

It seemed to pass evryone by what I mentioned about the ship that Mike concluded was the one mentioned. The Aurania does fit the description in the "far and Sure" article almost exactly. The engine problems, the emergency sailing, the arriving in port a week late, etc... Only it happened in 1883! On it's MAIDEN VOYAGE!

Once again I ask, can anyone check the manifest's from that voyage to see if anyone in the world of golf was on it? If no one was, then the voyage that "Far and Sure" described MUST have occurred on another ship, and Tilly wasn't on that one...

The biggest problem that I can see in this discussion is that the facts of the various articles are minimized over the search for the exact person who wrote them. Really, what is important is the information they contain, whether about Merion, Pine Valley or other courses. THAT is what should be concentrated on.

Finally, as I guess I must keep writing a bit, Tom Macwood, would you please offer us a name as I am asking as a personal favor for all. As far as your belief that "Far and Sure" MUST have been in Western Pennsylvania during those two months, I think you need to carefully define the time period as the articles might have required some lead time or minimal; and yes, Tilly WAS in Western Pennsylvania a number of times working on golf courses in 1913...








« Last Edit: October 27, 2008, 06:46:13 AM by Philip Young »

Jim Nugent

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #178 on: October 27, 2008, 12:58:21 AM »
The American Golfer article -- the one with the parodies -- gives another clue that possibly could clear up Far & Sure's identity.   

Starting on page 6 of the article, Far & Sure says "The writer speaks from actual experience extending over a period of over ten years during which time he was sporting editor of two of the largest papers, in point of circulation, in the city." 

I'm 99% sure that Far & Sure means himself, when he says "The writer speaks...".   So was Tillie sporting editor for ten years at two of the largest papers in the city?  If so, and the statement is truthful, Tillie was probably F&S. 

BTW, F&S also complains that there are no top-notch courses in Philadelphia.  When did he write the article?  After or before Merion opened?

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #179 on: October 27, 2008, 06:26:09 AM »
The American Golfer article -- the one with the parodies -- gives another clue that possibly could clear up Far & Sure's identity.   

Starting on page 6 of the article, Far & Sure says "The writer speaks from actual experience extending over a period of over ten years during which time he was sporting editor of two of the largest papers, in point of circulation, in the city." 

I'm 99% sure that Far & Sure means himself, when he says "The writer speaks...".   So was Tillie sporting editor for ten years at two of the largest papers in the city?  If so, and the statement is truthful, Tillie was probably F&S. 

BTW, F&S also complains that there are no top-notch courses in Philadelphia.  When did he write the article?  After or before Merion opened?

Tilly was the sporting editor at the Public Ledger around 1910 (I'll have to check my records for the exact time he started, but I think it was early 1910 and went until late 1910), and at the Philadelphia Record in 1911 (he started in January and I believe he ended up being the editor at The Record until at least 1916).
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

TEPaul

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #180 on: October 27, 2008, 07:50:41 AM »
From Philip Young (Tillinghast biographer):

"Finally, as I guess I must keep writing a bit, Tom Macwood, would you please offer us a name as I am asking as a personal favor for all......."


".......and yes, Tilly WAS in Western Pennsylvania a number of times working on golf courses in 1913..."
« Last Edit: October 27, 2008, 07:52:20 AM by TEPaul »

Thomas MacWood

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #181 on: October 27, 2008, 08:11:40 AM »
The American Golfer article -- the one with the parodies -- gives another clue that possibly could clear up Far & Sure's identity.   

Starting on page 6 of the article, Far & Sure says "The writer speaks from actual experience extending over a period of over ten years during which time he was sporting editor of two of the largest papers, in point of circulation, in the city." 

I'm 99% sure that Far & Sure means himself, when he says "The writer speaks...".   So was Tillie sporting editor for ten years at two of the largest papers in the city?  If so, and the statement is truthful, Tillie was probably F&S. 

BTW, F&S also complains that there are no top-notch courses in Philadelphia.  When did he write the article?  After or before Merion opened?

There is something to be said for continuing to look for more clues.

wsmorrison

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #182 on: October 27, 2008, 08:48:08 AM »
There is something to be said about someone that constantly posts lies about one particular individual desecrating grave sites.  Stop it immediately.  Your actions should not be allowed to continue.  Where is the management, Ben and Ran?  I've asked you on many occasions to stop this supreme jerk from being allowed to discredit and defame with lies.  MacWood's behavior should anger everyone on this website.  The silence by the members of this site and the lack of control by Ran and Ben are shocking.

MacWood should be kicked off this site permanently for his outrageous and hurtful behavior.  This is how the self-proclaimed "expert researcher" treats his critics.  When his results are proven to be untrue or even questioned, he attacks them personally with LIES.  I find it hard to believe that Ran and Ben condone his actions yet they clearly enable him to continue.  Why? 

Mike_Cirba

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #183 on: October 27, 2008, 10:27:17 AM »
**
« Last Edit: October 27, 2008, 12:57:37 PM by MikeCirba »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #184 on: October 27, 2008, 03:55:23 PM »
Phil,

I'm beginning to understand what Marcia Clark and Christopher Darden felt like!  ;)

Could you explain to me how Far and Sure plagiarized Tilly from not one, not two, but three separate articles from two different publications, one of which was published the exact same month as F+S's article and presumably not even available to steal from at that date?

Can you explain why the golfer's pictured in the Far and Sure article are the exact same golfers pictured in Tilly's American Cricketer article?

More to come...

Phil_the_Author

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #185 on: October 27, 2008, 04:08:51 PM »
Mike,

You asked, "Could you explain to me how Far and Sure plagiarized Tilly from not one, not two, but three separate articles from two different publications, one of which was published the exact same month as F+S's article and presumably not even available to steal from at that date?"

Easy... He didn't. You need to examine the articles and consider once again whether they are actually nothing more than articles covering the same subjects, themses and people. That they would contain similar information and even wording is due to those very things. Even specific phrases that would appear to be unique in today's culture were used by many at that time

Consider the term "Props" or "Propers." (How I HATE these!) just 5 years ago this term wasn't understood by most adult white Americans. Now most adults have at least heard it often enough to accept it as standard speech even if they don't know what it means.

"Can you explain why the golfer's pictured in the Far and Sure article are the exact same golfers pictured in Tilly's American Cricketer article?"

Again, easy... Even back the photographer's sold their photographs to more than one publication at a time. This is something that Tilly himself did.

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #186 on: October 27, 2008, 04:18:16 PM »
TMac (please, you really should reconsider continually making grave remarks, as they are very tired and don't reflect well upon you),


I couldn't agree more.  I have spoken out about abuse on this website before, I just wish all parties would rise above it and let it go.  I’ve also noticed this attempt at a “joke” being used on another occasion when Wayne wasn’t even participation on a thread, in reality it’s just an excuse to make an attack and it needs to stop.







Overall this has been an excellent thread and I hope it isn’t killed prematurely.  Perhaps someone more knowledgeable on this might like to comment on the following.

Look again at the following report Joe posted,  re the note on discovering Pine Valley; Another New Course, Paragraph two.



  In this telling Crump is on the train and sees the land for the first time.   “”What a place for a golf course!” he said to himself.” ("said to himself" ).  Later he explored (hunted around for the right bit of land?) with his friends.  

Does this reading not go some way to possibly uniting the two versions?; i.e. the same author could have been with Crump on both occasions but when telling the tale twice, he put the emphasis of the important discovery on a different one each time? Or then again perhaps I’m confused.


I now need to go and lie in a darkened room for a week.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2008, 04:23:44 PM by Tony_Muldoon »
Let's make GCA grate again!

Mike_Cirba

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #187 on: October 27, 2008, 04:52:04 PM »
Phil,

The list of attendees at the 1912 GAP dinner includes Tilly.

How many of these men do you think were also sports editors of not one, but two major Philly newspapers as Tillinghast was, and as was Far and Sure?

And its not the wording of the articles that is so striking...its the content, the expressed opinions, the observations, the areas of focus, the holes to discuss, the little asides, or related stories like the divot in the pro shop.  Phil...its all verbatim and it would be a chance in a million that it wasn't either plagiarized, even possibly  with permission, or that F+S is Tilly.

Can you show me a single example where they aren't in complete lockstep?

Mike_Cirba

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #188 on: October 27, 2008, 05:00:44 PM »
Phil

One other thing...

As you know, Tilly was an avid golf photographer.

Is there any record of him ever buying another person's pics for his own articles?

Wouldn't he have jumped at the chance to take some pics of Philly's first championship course which he had been such a staunch advocate of building?

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #189 on: October 27, 2008, 05:59:54 PM »
Wayno & Tom MacWood,

You both have a lot to offer this site, even if you're diametrically opposed to one another in position, disposition and/or personality.

Stop demanding that the other be removed from the site.

The site doesn't benefit from your removal.

Despite what each of you may think about the other, this site benefits from your active participation and contributions related to golf course architecture.

That you disagree on a given point is irrelevant.
What's relevant is the process of "discovery" that sometimes comes at the expense of one's previous or stated position.

I've learned a good deal from both of you.

Whether your Mother wore Army boots or not, is inconsequential and not germane to the architectural topics up for discussion.

Get your respective acts together, and get back on GCA.com ASAP

End of rant




Phil_the_Author

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #190 on: October 27, 2008, 06:14:24 PM »
Mike,

You asked, "Phil, One other thing... As you know, Tilly was an avid golf photographer. Is there any record of him ever buying another person's pics for his own articles?"

YES! It happened any number of times and can be seen in many articles that he wrote had photographs attached that have the credits listed below them NOT bearing his name.

"Wouldn't he have jumped at the chance to take some pics of Philly's first championship course which he had been such a staunch advocate of building?"

YES! Who said he didn't?

The problem here is how you came to those questions. First the two photographs were posted and a claim was made that it was Tilly who was the person in the plus-fours in both. I took critical exception to it and disagreed. Then the assumption was made that it was Tilly who took the photos. up till now I've not said anything as to that point, but if you ask me, I don't believe that tilly did. The reason? The quality of the hpotos are not up to Tilly's standards. He was an OUTSTANDING photographer... these are mere snapshots.

Mike, step back a second and look at the development of your argument (using this word in its pure & proper sense) on this subject. Several times you declared that you had proven that tilly had been on the Aurania and that it was definitely the ship that was mentioned in the article that had limped into port with severe engine trouble a week late.

I was able to prove that the one known time that Tilly sailed aboard the ship that it  was smooth sailing and arrived on time. I also showed that there WAS one occasion when that situation had occurred and that it was 7 years earlier. It is quite obvious that if "Far and Sure" was writing about a problem trip on the Aurania then it had to be the one from 1883. Was Tilly on board that one? I don't know, but what I do know is that he would have been no more than 8 years of age.

I keep asking that you consider searching out that manifest to see who was on board.

There is that one "smoking gun" piece of evidence that will identify "Far and Sure" and that is that he was on board a ship that suffered a specific problem. If it wasn't the Aurania's in 1883 then it was another one on another day. Either way, it is most unlikely that it was Tilly because he never wrote of experiencing ship problems sailing back from the U.K. either under his own name or as "Hazard."

Arguing over comparative phraseologies will get neither of us anywhere other than further entrenched in our opinions, and unfortunately for you, mine is the correct one!   ;D

Really then, and with the greatest of ironies, the answer lies with the ship and its manifest...

Mike_Cirba

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #191 on: October 27, 2008, 09:38:26 PM »
Mike,

You asked, "Phil, One other thing... As you know, Tilly was an avid golf photographer. Is there any record of him ever buying another person's pics for his own articles?"

YES! It happened any number of times and can be seen in many articles that he wrote had photographs attached that have the credits listed below them NOT bearing his name.

But Phil...have you seen any case where he purchased pictures of a course he had just played and was now reviewing?   ;) 

The problem here is how you came to those questions. First the two photographs were posted and a claim was made that it was Tilly who was the person in the plus-fours in both. I took critical exception to it and disagreed.

I never made that statement, Phil.   I believe Joe was speculating, because I think we've all seen Tillinghast in the long-coat, plus fours, and spiffy tweed hat getup from previous pictures.   In fact, there are a couple of really good ones of Tilly in "Reminisces of The Links" on pages 12, 52, and especially 54.   I'm not sure how you determined the man in that photo is too old to be Tilly...he certainly looked to have a spry swing!   

In any case, even if it wasn't Tilly, it could easily have been playing partner Hugh Willougby based on the picture I provided, and the similar stiff leg leg follow-through. 



Then the assumption was made that it was Tilly who took the photos. up till now I've not said anything as to that point, but if you ask me, I don't believe that tilly did. The reason? The quality of the hpotos are not up to Tilly's standards. He was an OUTSTANDING photographer... these are mere snapshots.


Phil...I'm not sure that Joe's taking a picture from a faded magazine article and then reproducing it on line, or the other with a trademark watermark over half the picture are fair comparisons from which to determine the quality of a photo.   

These photos seem very purposefully taken to indicate specific features of the golf course, and if you look at the "Far and Sure" article, you'll see that there are even arrows inserted (that correspond to the text) to point out the specific locations of the 12th and 16th greens....two holes specifically cited by both Tillinghast and "Far and Sure" as exemplary, as were the others in the pics including the 7th and the 13th.   

I don't think these were some random pics taken by some unrelated photog...they seem very purposefully taken to point out the holes that the articles are looking to cite.   Remember that the course was just opened at the time F&S and Tilly played there...hardly time to build a press kit.


Mike, step back a second and look at the development of your argument (using this word in its pure & proper sense) on this subject. Several times you declared that you had proven that tilly had been on the Aurania and that it was definitely the ship that was mentioned in the article that had limped into port with severe engine trouble a week late.

I was able to prove that the one known time that Tilly sailed aboard the ship that it  was smooth sailing and arrived on time. I also showed that there WAS one occasion when that situation had occurred and that it was 7 years earlier. It is quite obvious that if "Far and Sure" was writing about a problem trip on the Aurania then it had to be the one from 1883. Was Tilly on board that one? I don't know, but what I do know is that he would have been no more than 8 years of age.

Here's the basic problem with the manifests.   They suck.

Despite self-serving efforts here in the past to make them out as some type of indisputable evidence, they are only useful when all of the information is there, which seems about half the time. 

For instance, if memory serves, you earlier claimed that the first time Tilly went overseas was in 1895.   Well guess what?   There is no record of it in the manifests.

In 1899 there is a record of AW Tillinghast travelling with Benj C Tillinghast arriving in Liverpool.    There is no corresponding record of him ever returning.    Could this have been the trip where his ship ran into trouble?    I don't know, because no existing record can be found of how he came home.

Other than the 1890 trip on the Aurania I showed to you those are the only Tillinghast voyages mentioned in the manifests.   So, when did he spend all of that time with Old Tom?   Was it later??   How many times do we know he went abroad before 1900?

In 1907 a US Citizen named Hugh Wilson sailed from NYC into Liverpool, travelling first class on the brand new steamer that was the predecessor to Titanic.   Captain Edward Smith of the latter infamy was the captain.   Like the 1899 Tillinghast, however, he also must have expatriated himself as there is no record of him returning either.

If you spend any time at all looking at these things, you'll quickly see all of the holes, poor handwriting, and other problems of trying to use them as some type of conclusive evidence.

The bottom line with the manifests is this;   If all of the information is there, and was copied diligently and with corresponding essentials, the existence of one can be viewed as proof that something happened.

However, the absence of one can mean about 10 different things, and that seems to have been very, very common, unfortunately for we modern researchers.



I keep asking that you consider searching out that manifest to see who was on board.

The Ancestry.Com database allows for searching by person, but I haven't found a way to search just by Ship.   In doing a little digging on trans-Atlantic travel at that time, it turns out that some of these little "incidents" were not uncommon, particularly during the winter.    If it wasn't Tilly's 1890 trip that he was referring too, it is very unlikely that it was the same ship, but likely a different overseas trip.

Besides, if there was a way to search the Aurania 1883 trip to find the identity of "Far and Sure" and establish that it wasn't Tillinghast, I quite sure one of our midwest researchers would have already done that digging.  ;) 


There is that one "smoking gun" piece of evidence that will identify "Far and Sure" and that is that he was on board a ship that suffered a specific problem. If it wasn't the Aurania's in 1883 then it was another one on another day. Either way, it is most unlikely that it was Tilly because he never wrote of experiencing ship problems sailing back from the U.K. either under his own name or as "Hazard."

Let me ask you two things here, Phil.   First, are you conceding that all of the other evidence but the ship at least wouldn't rule out Far and Sure having been TIllinghast?

Second, in your reading of Tillinghast, was he ever one to stretch a point, or tell a good story to make a larger point or to entertain his reader or listener even if the story wasn't exactly accurate?   Frankly he seems to me to have been a grand bullshitter, and I mean that as a sincere compliment.   

Perhaps as a 15 year old he was on the Aurania and heard the terrifying adventures of the 1883 trip from some of the sailors.   With an imagination and creativity as wide as the Atlantic, don't you think it possible that Tillinghast took some artistic license about his voyages at sea?   Maybe it happened, maybe it didn't, but it certainly was a great lead to the article!  ;D


« Last Edit: October 27, 2008, 09:42:28 PM by MikeCirba »

TEPaul

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #192 on: October 27, 2008, 11:11:22 PM »
Ran and Ben:

I was up at Winged Foot today for Matt Burrows' (our old friend from Myopia, New Haven and now Winged Foot) outing. WHAT A COUPLE OF COURSES AND WHAT A JOB HE'S DOING THERE!!!

I got a call while I was up there and heard Wayne Morrison and Tom MacWood got bounced off this site today, and when I got back I see their names are dark.

Ran, let's try to resolve this ongoing difference and bad blood some other way and get those two back onto this website. All and all both of them are a couple of the most valuable contributors this site has. I understand things got intense and insulting and rude and I know I was part of all that too but it will serve GOLFCLUBATLAS.com a whole lot better if this can be resolved in some other way with both of them on the site. Let's talk about resolving this another way (off-line, I guess). 
« Last Edit: October 27, 2008, 11:12:54 PM by TEPaul »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #193 on: October 27, 2008, 11:17:50 PM »
Tony Muldoon,

Glad you're enjoying the thread...I think it has lots of cool historical info, as well.

In answer to your question, I'd say two things;

Yes, the situation you described is certainly possible.   

However, Phil had mixed up the person who he thought said that Crump had found the site on horseback while hunting.    It wasn't "Far and Sure" (aka Tillinghast ;)), it was "Joe Bunker", back on the Cobb's Creek threads.

So, as it turns out, it wasn't a disqualifying factor that was an inconsistency between "Far and Sure" and Tillinghast.    It does likely show that "Joe Bunker" wasn't Tillie however.

Still, to date, I've yet to see a shred of evidence to indicate that "Far and Sure" was not Tillinghast, and PLENTY of evidence strongly pointing to them being one and the same.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2008, 11:23:17 PM by MikeCirba »

TEPaul

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #194 on: October 27, 2008, 11:24:05 PM »
"There are several small points that I would like to clarify for evryone. First, Tom Paul quoted Bob Labbance when he wrote, "He (Travis) lined up regional correspondents to cover events in as many locales as he could, and to protect them from the scrutiny of the amateur versus professional hawkers, gave them all a pseudonym. It was "Lochinvar" covering the Western region. "Bunker Hill" handled New England. "Hazard" held court around Philadelphia. "Buckeye" reported from Ohio. Both "The Judge" and "The Colonel" issues reports from the South. "Far and Sure" was in Eastern Pennsylvania; "William Pitt" was in the Western part.. "Argonaut" detailed the Pacific news, and "A Sufferer", "The Duffer," "The Philospher," and "Westward Ho!" all submitted to the magazine from time to time. The identities of some of the correspondents and columnists remain a mystery yet today, prompting some to speculate that whenever it suited his fancy, Travis took on another name and let the doctrine fly."

Tom, you seem to have taken this to me that these names were just used whenever the whim struck Travis and that they aren't SPECIFIC individuals. That is incorrect. First note that Bob didn't state that these identities remain a mystery, he said that "SOME of the correspondents and columnists..." SOME meaning that the pen names were specific to certain people, not all of whom can be identified.

He also didn't state that Travis used numerous names, but rather that "SOME" speculated this."


Phil:

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say in that first sentence in the second paragraph (check the meaning or syntax, would you please?). With that post where I quoted from Bob Labbance's book I hope you don't mean you think I'm trying to take something he said out of context because I just quoted him in that post and didn't add a thing of my own.

TEPaul

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #195 on: October 27, 2008, 11:33:03 PM »
"Does this reading not go some way to possibly uniting the two versions?; i.e. the same author could have been with Crump on both occasions but when telling the tale twice, he put the emphasis of the important discovery on a different one each time? Or then again perhaps I’m confused."


Tony:

I don't think there is anything necessarily contradicatory about those two accounts of the discovery of Pine Valley. Even if it could've been two different writers I don't see there is anything in those two articles that necessarily precludes it being the same writer.

Mike_Cirba

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #196 on: October 27, 2008, 11:47:28 PM »
I just went back and re-checked.

Phil Young mentioned earlier that prior to this thread the Tillinghast family had believed that the first time Tilly went abroad was to St. Andrews in 1895, after he had gotten married.

There is absolutely NO manifest to be found for this trip!   NONE.

In 1899 British Emigration records show that AW Tillinghast arrived in Liverpool with his father.   There is NO CORRESPONDING RECORD of his return trip.

In 1907 a Hugh Wilson, a US Citizen, travelling first class, arrived in Liverpool from NYC.   Again, like Tillinghast he must have expatriated himself, because once again there is NO CORRESPONDING RECORD of his return trip.

And yet, an entire IMO piece was written here that had as it's foundation the premise that Hugh Wilson had never been abroad before 1912 or seen or played the great courses overseas before 1912 simply because no manifest was found to indicate such a trip.

This website...Ancestry.Com...and others like it, were held up to be something like infallible in terms of their content and accuracy.   

Well, after spending way too many hours researching on that site and others I can say very truthfully this simply fact;

If full content was provided, and handwriting was readable, and the information was accurately and fully transcribed, and the record survived the decades, and was scanned accurately into a database, then the existence of a record is pretty good indication that an event happened.

Unfortunately, it seems that happened something like 50-75% of the time.

In other words, the absence of evidence indicates absolutely nothing.

It most assuredly cannot be used to conclude that an event never happened.

Phil_the_Author

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #197 on: October 28, 2008, 12:24:01 AM »
Tom,

I simply meant that it appeared that you were using the quote to suggest that the pseudonym's used were interchangeable and possibly non-specific to individual person's. That is why I identified "Duffer" for you. If you didn't use it that way i apologize for the misunderstanding.

Mike,

The irony of the point you are trying to make is that you declared earlier in the thread that, based upon manifets, the "Aurania" was the ship that Tilly sailed on and that the August 1890 voyage was the one that encountered the problems that "Far and Sure" wrote about. After I was able to prove that the ship had no problems on that voyage at all and you now state that it must have either been a different votage which we can't know about because the manifests are no longer reliable as proof being missing or that a 15-year old Tilly possibly made up a story based upon hearing others talking about the event?

Have you considered that "far and Sure" may have been writing about the incident invovling the Alan Ship Line's "Siberian" which had a situation most similar to what F&S wrote about? The date was May of 1886, well within the timeframes he mentioned...

It's time to simply be reasonable...

You write, "Still, to date, I've yet to see a shred of evidence to indicate that "Far and Sure" was not Tillinghast, and PLENTY of evidence strongly pointing to them being one and the same..."

For me it's the exact opposite...

I repeat what I wrote at the start of this, that is my opinion and you are entitled to yours...

TEPaul

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #198 on: October 28, 2008, 12:26:43 AM »
Mike Cirba:

It should be obvious to anyone that people have crossed the Atlantic in the last 120 years or so even aboard commercial ships that is not documented via ship passenger manifests on the Internet. I had a most interesting conversation about this with the Titanic Society.

Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #199 on: October 28, 2008, 03:39:04 AM »
Based on the experience that Sean Tully and I have in searching for Mackenzie's various voyages, I would say that we have around 90% of his known trips recorded in these ships manifests. Its not a bad success rate, but we are talking 1920's and 30's here. Perhaps things are a bit patchy the further back you go.

Off the subject of this thread, I have just discovered Mackenzie's return trip from South America (Buenos Aires) to England in April of 1930, arriving on 27 April. Unfortunately the British manifests do not record the date of sailing, unlike the US manifests, so we don't know the precise date he left. I would imagine Buenos Aires to England on a ship would have been at least a fortnight or so. Anyone have any ideas of this?

Not something we had in the Timeline before and I think people were only surmising how long he stayed in SA for.

Now, please resume normal programming.............

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