[Sean Leary]

Tom,

I haven't brought anything to the thread, just followed it. I understand you don't want to help TE. Fine.

But you obviously have info that others are interested in and for us, we would appreciate you sharing, that's all. A couple of us who have not gotten involved in the past have asked questions politely, and with no ill intent, and you have ignored those questions.

I cannot be helpful with info on this thread but you can and won't. Just wish you would.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

I haven't brought anything to the thread, just followed it. I understand you don't want to help TE. Fine.

But you obviously have info that others are interested in and for us, we would appreciate you sharing, that's all. A couple of us who have not gotten involved in the past have asked questions politely, and with no ill intent, and you have ignored those questions.

I cannot be helpful with info on this thread but you can and won't. Just wish you would.

Sean,

You're missing the point.

He DOESN'T have any additional info.

He's just trying to cloud and obfuscate and spin any remaining loose strings into something supposedly meaningful...much like he's done through the whole Merion episode.

He so badly wants to cast doubt and destroy "legends" that don't fit his view of architectural history being handed down by a few "experts" in this country that he can't even accept direct, contemporaneous proof.

[TEPaul]

"I beg your pardon. With all due respect what have you offered to this thread?"


Mr. MacWood:

What Sean Leary has offered to this thread is very important. He's another one who has asked you to explain that statement of yours that you know or knew the identity of Far and Sure, which makes him another in the growing list of people whose very same questions you are dedicatedly ignoring. His last post is another good example of what he's contributing to this thread which you continue to stifle.

Sean, Mr. MacWood doesn't know Far and Sure's identity and he never did. Don't you think that's become pretty clear by now? And it's pretty hard for any rational or logical mind to conceive of how anyone could determine a pen name's real identity off some ship's record. Does he really expect someone to believe that whoever the man was that he listed his identity on a ship manifest and included with his real name some pen name or pseudonym used on American Golfer??   

[Mike_Cirba]

You see, Sean, Tom MacWood has alluded above that "Far and Sure" was Walter Travis, asking us to see if perhaps Travis was in Pittsburgh in 1913.

However, there is no way in hades that "Far and Sure" was Walter Travis, as can be seen in the second paragraph of this first-hand account of the 1912 Lesley Cup matches played at Huntingdon Valley Country Club;

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1912/ag91k.pdf

He's trying to do two things, Sean...

1) Cast doubt to the uninitated rather than admit he was wrong on the whole Merion thing..

2) Send Tom & Wayne on wild-goose chases..


"Far and Sure" was AW Tillinghast and he just doesn't like that fact because it shoots a big, fat hole in his theories.

[TEPaul]

"I beg your pardon. With all due respect what have you offered to this thread?"


Mr. MacWood:

What Sean Leary has offered to this thread is very important. He's another one who has asked you to explain that statement of yours that you know or knew the identity of Far and Sure, which makes him another in the growing list of people whose very same questions you are dedicatedly ignoring. His last post is another good example of what he's contributing to this thread which you continue to stifle.

Sean, Mr. MacWood doesn't know Far and Sure's identity and he never did. Don't you think that's become pretty clear by now? And it's pretty hard for any rational or logical mind to conceive of how anyone could determine a pen name's real identity off some ship's record. Does he really expect someone to believe that whoever the man was that he listed his identity on a ship manifest and included with his real name some pen name or pseudonym used on American Golfer??   



Sean:

We've been dealing with Mr. MacWood on this site for years with some of those issues he mentioned above and the fanciful notions and highly speculative scenarios he comes up with. That he then stands by them continuously while constantly completely avoiding logical questions about them is really mind-boggling. I guess he will always do that but how in the world he can put a statement on here like the following without first understanding he is going to be grilled on it is just beyond me.



This is what he said on the first page of this thread (Reply #26):

"The AG article starts, "A number of years ago your correspondent was a passenger on a crippled ocean liner, and for nearly a week we had been making but little headway under sail. For several days we had lost our bearings and a fog that could almost be cut in half with a knife had settled on us. At last it lifted and we cound that we were quite close to the Newfoundland coast, and we finally made the harbor of St.John for repairs."

A while back I figured this was the clue to Far & Sure's identity. I tracked down the name of the ship and the date of incedent, through the ship's records was able to figure out who wrote it. His name escapes me right now but I do remember it wasn't Tilly or Travis."


And as you know he patently refuses to answer questions about that statement or even acknowledge he's being asked. You should know as like me you're just another one who's asked him with no explanation or response from him on those very same questions.

[Mike_Cirba]

Sean,

Or perhaps this first-hand account by "Far and Sure" of the Golf Association of Philadelphia annual meeting shows he was Walter Travis.   

(see the 3rd page of 7 where "letters of regret" are mentioned)

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1912/ag74i.pdf

[Mike_Cirba]

Much more important in that article is the following;


"The serious part of the evening was preceeded by a song fest, consisting of parodies of popular songs by Mr. A.W. Tillinghast, and a vaudeville performance."


Fine enough, but then at the end of the article, "Far and Sure" produces the following;

"Here are a few of the golf parodies:

THE PATENT GOLFER.
Tune—"I Want a Girl Like Dad's."
I want to play, just like the day,
When I was not so punk;
Now I'm a quince, have been ever since
I bought this bunch of junk:
I've Dreadnought drivers—a Schenectady,
Corkscrew mashies and a rubber tee;
And when I play the caddies say,
''Whose turn to lug the trunk?"

GOLF WEATHER.
Tune—"Stein Song."
Now, what matter the weather,
When golfers all get together?
Be it rainy or snowy,
Let the day be bright or drear.
The cold winds of winter fret us;
Though the rains try to wet us,
In the heart of the Golfer,
There the sun is shining clear.

DOUBLE-FACED GOLF.
Tune—"Oh, You Beautiful Doll."
Oh, you wonderful golf,
You pleasing, breezing golf;
Gee, I want to sing about you,
I could never live without you.
Oh, you blunderful golf—
You teasing, squeezing golf;
Some days never miss
A drive or three putts take,
Then I get so rotten
That my clubs I break.
Oh! oh ! oh ! oh ! oh !
You double-faced golf.

DUFFEROO.
Tune—"Mr. Dooley."
Whenever we go to the show
And see the tattooed man,
The Hoochee Koochee Dancers,
And the famous Darby Ram,
We gaze upon their antics,
But we pass them with a smile,
Because we know a fellow
Who has got 'em skinned a mile.
Chorus.
He is the Duffer—the poor, old Duffer;
He swings and swipes, but never follows
through;
He twists and pivots, he's fine on divots—
Is Duffer—uffer—uffer—ufferoo.
Repeat Chorus.
Yes, he's a Duffer, a poor, old Duffer;
What if he makes the air a trifle blue?
He loves the game, boys. What's in the
name, boys?
Here's to you, Duffer—uffer—ufferoo."


Now, does anyone out there really believe that if the author wasn't Mr. Tillinghast that he would produce this level of detail of someone else's song parodies?!?       

If he was simply mild mannered Jimmy Olsen reporting for the American Golfer do you think he would have copied not 1, not 2, but 4 complete song parodies verbatim and printed them in his article?

Would any other reporter have done this??

No, this was clearly Tillinghast, and clearly amused with his own creativity, and wanting to share his little ditties with the larger golfing world.

[Mike_Cirba]

British Immigration records also show a 23 year old Albert W. Tillinghast arriving in Liverpool (from Philadelphia) on July 19, 1899 on the ship "Waesland".   He was travelling with a "Benj C. Tillinghast", who was 49 years old.

The interesting thing, given the supposed reliability of these Shipping Manifests (I found this info through Ancestry.Com) is that there is NO evidence of his corresponding return!

What this means clearly is that the Tillinghast who hung around Philly and designed a great many courses was a complete fraud and imposter!!   

[TEPaul]

"You see, Sean, Tom MacWood has alluded above that "Far and Sure" was Walter Travis, asking us to see if perhaps Travis was in Pittsburgh in 1913."


MikeC:

I sure hope not because if that's what Mr. MacWood meant to say in that remark above he's either a lot stupider or a lot more forgetful than even I think he is or else he really is trying to lead this entire thread on a true wild-goose-chase. Haven't you read and considered what he said in his post #26 on this thread yet? In that one he stated that he knows the identity of "Far and Sure" (or that he did know "Far and Sure's" identity but has since forgotten it  ) and it's neither Tillinghast nor Travis.

Something tells me Mr. MacWood thought or still thinks that this whole crippled ship thing probably happened in the teens and nowhere near as far back as 1890. It may be that he really didn't read that January 1913 AG article carefully enough to notice that the correspondent mentioned later in that article that the crippled ship thing was over twenty years ago.

I would really like to know what crippled ship he thinks he tracked down which somehow lead him to think he figured out the identity of "Far and Sure" off the ship's records but it doesn't look like he's willing to say anything about any of it on here.

He's probably resigned to take this entire thread on a wild-goose-chase because he's completely unwilling to just admit that he was confused or is wrong about knowing the identity of "Far and Sure."

[Mike_Cirba]

Also of interest in the British immigration records is the fact that a United States citizen by the name of "Hugh Wilson"sailed first class on the Adriatic, arriving in Liverpool from NYC in June of 1907.

Of course, in these wonderfully complete records, this Hugh Wilson must have emigrated permanently from the United States to Great Britain, as there is no corresponding record of his return, either.   

[TEPaul]

Mike:

Can you tell me what shipping line owned the "Adriatic"? Or better yet who insured it?

If that particular Hugh Wilson was a US citizen and he came back to the US in 1907 but there's no record of his return, maybe you should check the passenger lists of him flying home on the Concorde in 1907. 

I have a cousin who solo-sailed a boat that wasn't much more than 20 feet from New York to the west coast of Ireland in the late 1960s. I wonder if there was a passenger manifest list on that one? He hit the coast of Ireland one morning at day break. Some Irishman happened to be at the shore when he came in. The Irishman asked this guy, Duncan Spencer, what he was doing sailing in at that hour of the morning. Spencer said he'd just arrived from America. The man's response was; "Laddie, you must be either very brave or very stupid!" 

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

It was the White Star Line.

http://www.greatoceanliners.net/adriatic2.html

[TEPaul]

"Tom,
It was the White Star Line."

MikeC:

I see. Do you know who controlled that line?

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

In another of those eerie coincidences, Captain Edward Smith of the Titanic was the Adriatic's Captain in 1907.

Who controlled it?

[TEPaul]

"Who controlled it?"

Forget about Captain Smith for the time being but that sure is a coincidence. Don't you know who controlled that line either totally or as it's American agent and representative on this side?

[TEPaul]

Well, let me explain what it was apparently all about.

The White Star Line was one of a number of lines (apparently including passenger and shipping lines) that were loosely referred to back then as "The Shipping Trust" even though the combined companies had another name. They had over a million tons at sea.

The thing was controlled by a Philadelphian by the name of Clement Griscom. He was the chariman. He lived on a huge place in Haverford, Pennsylvania. On a part of his estate, "Dolobran", was one of the nines of Merion Cricket Club.

His children included a son who was the ambassador to Italy; a daughter won the US Amateur. Another son was Rodman Griscom, a prominent member of MCC, excellent golfer who served on Wilson's Committee and eventually became the first president of Merion GC when it finally split away from MCC in 1941.

Apparently most of the financing for "The Shipping Trust" came from J.P. Morgan, an American financial dynamo who was initially "made" by a Philadelphian by the name of A.J. Drexel who took him into his financial firm in the 1870s, made him his "Man" in New York, built iconic 23 Wall St. for him. Eventually the company turned into Drexel Morgan (at least in New York) and when Drexel died in 1895 into J.P. Morgan & Co. Drexel and company remained as it had been previously, and later in the 20th century became Drexel, Burnham, Lambert, a company that ended up controlling most of the world of "Junk Bond" Impressario Michael Millken's financial structure until he got caught for fraud in the 1990s thereby essentially taking down the 150 year old Drexel & Co. The last remaining family member to run Drexel & Co. was James W. Paul who I believe died in 1908. He lived in a place called Woodmont or Woodcrest or something that is now Cabrini College and some of his property is now the St. David's G.C. In 1925 the family sold the estate to the Dorrance family (Campbell Soup). His son, A.J. Drexel Paul, was apparently going to facilitate St. David's G.C. but for some reason he and a group of about ten other MCC members decided to found Gulph Mills G.C. in 1916. They apparently did not like how crowded the golf at Merion had become.

The partners of both Drexel & Co. and Morgan & Co. included fellow Wilson committee member Horatio Gates Lloyd as well as George Thomas, architect Geo Thomas Jr's father.

If that was our Hugh Wilson from Merion on board that White Star Lines "Adriatic" in 1907 (and I'm not now saying it was) there's not much question why he was traveling first class, is there Mikey? 

Oh, by the way, because MCC's Clement Griscom controlled that "Shipping Trust" that held The White Star Lines, he also owned and/or controlled The Titanic! It went down in April 1912 and by the end of the year Clement Griscom was dead.

Another piece of trivia: There was a prominent young MCC member by the name of Thayer (I believe he was an excellent cricketer). He did sail on Griscom's Titanic and died. His place on the MCC board was taken by Hugh Wilson.

And that was shipping. Wait until you see how some of those guys in and around MCC controlled the American railroads, particularly through their connections to Drexel & Co and Morgan & Co, two of the most pervasive "financial" companies of that time.

[Mike_Cirba]

Much more important in that article is the following;


"The serious part of the evening was preceeded by a song fest, consisting of parodies of popular songs by Mr. A.W. Tillinghast, and a vaudeville performance."


Fine enough, but then at the end of the article, "Far and Sure" produces the following;

"Here are a few of the golf parodies:

THE PATENT GOLFER.
Tune—"I Want a Girl Like Dad's."
I want to play, just like the day,
When I was not so punk;
Now I'm a quince, have been ever since
I bought this bunch of junk:
I've Dreadnought drivers—a Schenectady,
Corkscrew mashies and a rubber tee;
And when I play the caddies say,
''Whose turn to lug the trunk?"

GOLF WEATHER.
Tune—"Stein Song."
Now, what matter the weather,
When golfers all get together?
Be it rainy or snowy,
Let the day be bright or drear.
The cold winds of winter fret us;
Though the rains try to wet us,
In the heart of the Golfer,
There the sun is shining clear.

DOUBLE-FACED GOLF.
Tune—"Oh, You Beautiful Doll."
Oh, you wonderful golf,
You pleasing, breezing golf;
Gee, I want to sing about you,
I could never live without you.
Oh, you blunderful golf—
You teasing, squeezing golf;
Some days never miss
A drive or three putts take,
Then I get so rotten
That my clubs I break.
Oh! oh ! oh ! oh ! oh !
You double-faced golf.

DUFFEROO.
Tune—"Mr. Dooley."
Whenever we go to the show
And see the tattooed man,
The Hoochee Koochee Dancers,
And the famous Darby Ram,
We gaze upon their antics,
But we pass them with a smile,
Because we know a fellow
Who has got 'em skinned a mile.
Chorus.
He is the Duffer—the poor, old Duffer;
He swings and swipes, but never follows
through;
He twists and pivots, he's fine on divots—
Is Duffer—uffer—uffer—ufferoo.
Repeat Chorus.
Yes, he's a Duffer, a poor, old Duffer;
What if he makes the air a trifle blue?
He loves the game, boys. What's in the
name, boys?
Here's to you, Duffer—uffer—ufferoo."


Now, does anyone out there really believe that if the author wasn't Mr. Tillinghast that he would produce this level of detail of someone else's song parodies?!?       

If he was simply mild mannered Jimmy Olsen reporting for the American Golfer do you think he would have copied not 1, not 2, but 4 complete song parodies verbatim and printed them in his article?

Would any other reporter have done this??

No, this was clearly Tillinghast, and clearly amused with his own creativity, and wanting to share his little ditties with the larger golfing world.

Tom MacWood,

You've grown strangely silent on this matter.

Which of the local Philadelphia reporters do you think attended the annual Golf Association of Philadelphia dinner, reported on it as "Far and Sure" for American Golfer, and had access to all of Tillinghast's little ditties, as well as the cuyones and insider knowledge to report them all verbatim in the magazine, down to the "Duffer-uffer-uffer-ufferoo!"? 


By the way, don't you think the men in those pics bear a startling resemblance in dress and appearance to those chaps Howard Perrin and Hugh Willoughby?   I sure do. 

[Thomas MacWood]

Tom MacWood,

You've grown strangely silent on this matter.

Which of the local Philadelphia reporters do you think attended the annual Golf Association of Philadelphia dinner, reported on it as "Far and Sure" for American Golfer, and had access to all of Tillinghast's little ditties, as well as the cuyones and insider knowledge to report them all verbatim in the magazine, down to the "Duffer-uffer-uffer-ufferoo!"? 

The same guy who was lost at sea in the fog for a week and who was based in Pittsburgh in 1913.


By the way, don't you think the men in those pics bear a startling resemblance in dress to those chaps Howard Perrin and Hugh Willoughby?   I sure do. 

Hard to tell. I wouldn't know Hugh Willoughby even if I fell over him. Of course he's dead, so its unlikely I'll be falling over him any time soon, unless of course Wayne is involved in one of his pervocative adventures at one of your local graveyards. The thing I noticed is the fellow in the white shirt is wearing knickers in one picture and long pants in the other. I suppose he could have changed trousers at the turn.

[wsmorrison]

You are and will forever it seems remain a rotten human being, MacWood.  All because you fell flat on your face trying to impress the world with your expert research skills despite having the analytical ability of a cow pie.  You lie, distort and make up stories to impress, but you all you end up doing is demonstrating what a fraud and a fool you are.  At the same time, you are not man enough to come down from your Ivory Tower and face anyone and repeat the garbage you do on this site.  Or are you?  Let's find out.

[Joe Bausch]

By the way, don't you think the men in those pics bear a startling resemblance in dress to those chaps Howard Perrin and Hugh Willoughby?   I sure do. 

Hard to tell. I wouldn't know Hugh Willoughby even if I fell over him. Of course he's dead, so its unlikely I'll be falling over him any time soon, unless of course Wayne is involved in one of his pervocative adventures at one of the local graveyards. The thing I noticed is the fellow in the white shirt is wearing knickers in one picture and long pants in the other. I suppose he could have changed trousers at the turn.

Or maybe it was a foursome and the 4th 'matches' with the other photos?  That would be nonsense, right TMac?

Or maybe not.

[Thomas MacWood]

Joe
Here are the two images I was looking at and the apparent wardrobe change. Are you thinking the fellow in the dark suit is the third and the photographer is the fourth? If that is this case did the golfers in the white shirts take turns behind the camera? I only count two caddies.

Wayne
Maybe we should meet in Southampton, that way you can reenact your infamous desecration of Macdonald's grave.

[TEPaul]

"The same guy who was lost at sea in the fog for a week and who was based in Pittsburgh in 1913."


I tend to agree with that, except I wouldn't say the guy who filed the copy under the pen name "Far and Sure" in the "Western Pennsylvania Notes" section of American Golfer in July and August 1913 was "BASED" in Pittsburgh. Who said that other than Tom MacWood?

I think one of the AG correspondents just filed copy in the "Western Pennsylvania Notes" section in those two months only and it was probably Tillinghast. In one of those months (July) the regular "Western Pennsylvania Notes" section pen name, "William Pitt" also filed copy which is the only time I can see that ever happened. Why would he do that if it was just one correspondent filing that month for the "Western Pennsylvania Notes" section?

I don't think you have any idea what the identity is of "Far and Sure", as you said in post #26 you did, Mr. MacWood. If you don't you certainly should have admitted that on this thread days ago and if you do have some idea what his identity is you most certainly should have put that on this thread long ago too, otherwise you've been consciously wasting a lot of people's time by playing some very petty and self-serving games. Either way you should explain yourself like right now and if it turns out to be either of the two foregoing reasons, I think Ran Morrissett should throw you off this website for good.

[Joe Bausch]

TMac (please, you really should reconsider continually making grave remarks, as they are very tired and don't reflect well upon you),

This photo is also from that January 1913 "Far and Sure" The American Golfer article:

[Mike_Cirba]

I really think it is useful to give a comparison of the December 1, 1912 Tillinghast article from the Philadelphia Record newspaper and the article from "Far and Sure" from the January 1913 issue of American Golfer.  I've taken excerpts from each article and posted them side-by-side for comparison.  Below are excerpts on the left from "Far and Sure", and on the right are those from A.W. Tillinghast's piece on December 1, 1912 in the Philadelphia Record:




IMO, if the authors are not one in the same, then somebody did a big-time job of plagiarism. 

Joe,

I'd really love to see this updated to include both the American Cricketer cross-comparisons to "Far and Sure"'s article, as well as the other Tillinghast article you posted during construction.   For instance, here's a few little gems;


"Last year I met Mr. Macdonald at Garden City and he was quite enthusiastic regarding the great possibilities at Haverford.   In his opinion, it will eventually be one of the very best inland courses in America."  -  A.W Tillinghast, Philadelphia Record, May, 1912

"Two years ago, Mr. Chas. B. Macdonald, who has been of great assistance in an advisory way, told me that Merion would have one of the best inland courses he had ever seen..." - "Far and Sure", January 1913



"The Mid-Surrey scheme of hollows and mounds has been introduced in some places, although not to a considerable degree" - A.W. Tillinghast, American Cricketer

"Many of the imported ideas of hazard formation are good, and the grassy hollows of Mid-Surrey has been well introduced." - "Far and Sure"



"To attempt an analysis of some of the holes today is manifestly unfair, for they are not nearly so advanced as others.." - A.W. Tillinghast, American Cricketer

"It is too early to attempt an analytical criticism for many of them are but rough drafts of the problems..." - "Far and Sure"



"The quality of the greens is suprisingly good, and their condition indicates careful and intelligent preparation." - A.W. Tillinghast, American Cricketer

"It required but a glance and a few steps on the turf to convince me that the quality was there and the putting greens were excellent, considering their age.    Everything indicated careful, intelligent preparation." - "Far and Sure"



"No one will ever play Merion without taking away the memory of number 16!" - A.W. Tillinghast, American Cricketer

"But the sixteenth!  It is the sixteenth which especially appeals and lasts longest in the memory." - "Far and Sure"



"The hazard on each is an immense quarry hole which has been cleaned and tidied up" - A.W. Tillinghast, American Cricketer

"I think though that the quarry is a trifle too much like a Dutch housewife's kitchen.   In tidying up the place the floor has been made very clean.." - "Far and Sure"



"I am told that some of the Merion men are not reconciled to the twelfth, but I would regret to see it changed" - A.W. Tillinghast, American Cricketer

"I am told that there have been some objections to the twelfth and this should at once stamp it as a good one." - "Far and Sure"



"For that matter, I would like to see more pronounced undulations on some of the other greens, as well." - A.W. Tillinghast, American Cricketer

"To my way of thinking, some of the greens would be better if they were more undulating.." - "Far and Sure"





I could literally go on all night...   



oops...I almost forgot one.



"The construction committee, headed by Hugh I. Wilson, has been thorough in its methods and deserves the congratulations of all golfers." - A.W. Tillinghast, American Cricketer

"...of the various holes for many of them are but rough drafts of the problems, conceived by the construction committee, headed by Mr. Hugh I. Wilson." - "Far and Sure"

[Mike_Cirba]

By the way,  lest the "plagiarism theory" resurface, I've been informed that the "American Cricketer" article didn't come out until the January 1913 issue, which just coincidentally also happens to be the month/year that the "Far and Sure" review of Merion in American Golfer hit the stands.

So, unless Travis and his gang of word bandits purloined an early copy, this dog won't hunt.

Give up the ghost, MacWood.

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