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BCrosby

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Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #125 on: October 26, 2008, 10:57:32 AM »
TEP -

Great find. Fascinating. 

Bob

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #126 on: October 26, 2008, 11:09:19 AM »
These were the last two articles Far & Sure wrote for American Golfer:

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1913/ag103j.pdf

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1913/ag104l.pdf


Thanks for pointing those out TMac.

Without having any evidence of the following, I would hazard (huh-huh) a guess that those two issues showing Far and Sure with Western Pennsylvania (instead of William Pitt) was simply a production error.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Thomas MacWood

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #127 on: October 26, 2008, 11:19:00 AM »
TE,

Sorry I missed you saying that. This has been fascinating for me.

Regardless, doesn't this put an end to the major Merion questions?



Sean
It has been fascinating. It is fascinating to see how emotions and emotional attachment can affect one's ability to anaylze logically. Of course this is not new, we been observing this phenomenon since the Merion debate began.

wsmorrison

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #128 on: October 26, 2008, 11:20:51 AM »
Of the 21 "Far and Sure" articles I located in the 1911-1913 issues of American Golfer, 19 covered Eastern Pennsylvania and only the two articles MacWood posted (Jul 1913 and Aug 1913) covered Western Pennsylvania.  The only other F&S article that year (Jan 1913) covered Eastern Pennsylvania.  Saying that F&S was based in Western Pennsylvania is a bit of a stretch.  He covered Western Pennsylvania for two months over a period of three years.

Thomas MacWood

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #129 on: October 26, 2008, 11:27:00 AM »
Travis never had a problem letting the doctrine fly under his own name.

Wayne
One man's based is another man's he was in Western Pa covering golf. Pretty much the same thing, and hopefully not grounds for a law suit.

wsmorrison

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #130 on: October 26, 2008, 11:34:37 AM »
You are a rotten human being, MacWood.  You are also an idiot when it comes to analyzing anything.  You just accumulate information, it is all you do well, and let others handle the data analysis. 

Based in Western Pennsylvania implies a sense of permanence.  That cannot be determined by the two articles published in AG.  As is often the case, your statements are either exaggerated, twisted or are downright falsehoods.

How many courses did Flynn have open in 1928?
« Last Edit: October 26, 2008, 11:37:11 AM by Wayne Morrison »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #131 on: October 26, 2008, 01:02:13 PM »
Perhaps I wasn't clear...

If the writer under the byline "Far and Sure" in the January 1913 review of Merion wasn't Tillinghast, he would have had to copied large sections from TWO SEPARATE ARTICLES by Tillinghast in TWO SEPARATE PUBLICATIONS!  ::)

One of them was a periodical "American Cricketer", but the other was just a local city newspaper, the Philadelphia Record!!   ::)

Are you guys seriously claiming that "Far and Sure" grabbed the phrase about the only serious approach option on the 15th hole was to "Skittle" the shot from the local newspaper, and the part about them freezing the membership limit, aquiring land, and building a second course from the American Cricketer?    ::)

There are about 10 examples of each, if anyone cares to read them.

Tom MacWood...I honestly believe at this point if someone were to find the plans signed by Hugh Wilson you'd find some reason to challenge it rather than admit your error in this matter.    It's ok...I'm wrong sometimes too, but you're wrong here.

The funny thing is that all of this doesn't matter.   It doesn't matter if "Far and Sure" is Tillinghast or not, because we now have another contemporaneous article by an expert witness who we know "has seen the plans" prior to construction, and who credited Hugh Wilson as the man who "planned and developed" the Merion course.

Funnier still is that the "American Cricketer" article which we know is Tillinghast  and which cites Hugh Wilson at the course's opening, has been sitting on the shelves here forever.

Did you or Moriarty ever read that one?   I can't imagine that you haven't.   If so, why did you choose to omit this information from the White Paper?




Mike_Cirba

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #132 on: October 26, 2008, 01:21:32 PM »

First of all no one has even done the basic research to connect "Far and Sure" in the American Golfer with "Far and Sure" from the newspaper articles or the "Far and Sure" who I mentioned in a very early comment who wrote in British golf journals.

Phil...it was simply a pen-name using a colloquialism in two different unrelated magazines.   Perhaps Travis had seen the one in the British journal and liked it, or even subliminally copied it years later.   I don't think it's germane to the issue. 

Secondly, If Tilly is both "Far and Sure" and "Hazard" from the American Golfer then there has to be some explaining as to why articles under both names can be found in the same issues.

I don't see any issue with this at all.   Tillinghast was aware of everything going on in the state of PA, both in Philadelphia and in the northeast where he did a ton of work.   Why wouldn't have Travis just put different nomenclatures on different reports to suggest breadth of coverage?  In that light, it's amazing how many articles by Far & Sure talked in depth about courses where Tilly worked or had established relationships that led to work in those years, including Shawnee, Valley, Wyoming Valley, Olde York Road, and others.

As far as the photographs are concerned... I don't believe this is Tilly at all in them, rather the gentleman in the plus-fours looks far more like Travis. He is TOO OLD to be Tilly. Take a look at the Tilly photos im my Tilly bio. When these articles were written he would have been less than 40 years old. The man in the photo gives the impression of being much older than that.

Phil, are you saying that the golfers in the American Golfer article by Far&Sure are not the EXACT SAME golfers in the American Cricketer article by Tillinghast?!?   :o   If they are the same people, which they clearly are, how could that be?!?! Far & Sure tells us he played with Hugh Willoughby and Howard Perrin of Merion.   Given Tillinghast's penchant for photography, don't you think he was the man behind the camera taking pictures of the new holes with his friends and their caddies in the pics? "

{EDIT}  Additionally, when "Hazard" (who you know was Tillinghast) wrote about his first playing of the Merion West course in the December 1913 issue of American Golfer, he played with Howard Perrin again.   On that same page there is a picture of Hugh Willoughby.   That stiff left leg finish sure looks familiar! ;)   See page 7 of 7 on this link


http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1913/ag112l.pdf
   
Mike, as far as the manifest is concerned, you emailed me and told me that the trip it refers to was made in August 1890. The manifest states that he was 14 years old, but we have documented proof that he was 15 in August 1890. To paraphrase an old Cuban philosopher, "Mikey, you got some 'splainin' to do!"

Phil, this was common.   Even the 1912 Hugh Wilson manifest has his age wrong by a year.   If you look closely, it even says "approximately 14".   I believe they just looked at birth year.    You can't tell me that this manifest  is not OUR A.W. Tillinghast?!  ;)

Now I readily admit that maybe they left America before mid-May and the person who filled it out just copied his age from that; yet the story behind this clerical error is meaningless.

Mike, as for the article where "Hazard" wrote of the discovery of Pine Valley by Crump while looking through the train window, it can be found in Chapter II of my Tilly bio... If you don't have it, and SHAME on you if you don't (only kidding there buddy!) I will send you the reference when I get back home on Monday...

Phil, I think you misunderstand me.   Joe's article by Tillinghast from the American Cricketer cites the train window story, as well.   "Far and Sure" never claimed any differently.   That was "Joe Bunker".   I believe you were simply confusing the two. 

Thanks for the good wishes...I'm a bit better today.  ;D

« Last Edit: October 26, 2008, 01:41:14 PM by MikeCirba »

Thomas MacWood

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #133 on: October 26, 2008, 01:30:22 PM »
It's over.

In my opinion, Ran should pull the speculative White Paper that has now been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to be in error, and that risks this site providing a searchable, false architectural history of a great club whose true "legendary" story deserves not to be besmirched.

That, of course, is totally his call, but irrespective of everything else, this is a wonderful find, Joe.  Great Job!!   ;D


This is the kind emotional, illogical and irrational comments that have marred this entire debate. David's essay is one of the most well researched and well written essays ever presented on GCA. He obviously put a lot of time, effort and thought into it, but here we have Mike demanding it be pulled from the site. Has an In My Opinion ever been pulled off the site?

This is outrageous, and shows a complete lack of perspective IMO. To my knowledge Mike hasn't contributed a single essay to this site. In fact the three primary complainers (Wayen, TE and Mike), who have all demanded the essay be pulled, have not contributed a single essay between them. If they have a problem with the essay they should stop making irrational and outrageous demands and write their own counter essay.

TEPaul

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #134 on: October 26, 2008, 01:32:49 PM »
"Of the 21 "Far and Sure" articles I located in the 1911-1913 issues of American Golfer, 19 covered Eastern Pennsylvania and only the two articles MacWood posted (Jul 1913 and Aug 1913) covered Western Pennsylvania.  The only other F&S article that year (Jan 1913) covered Eastern Pennsylvania.  Saying that F&S was based in Western Pennsylvania is a bit of a stretch.  He covered Western Pennsylvania for two months over a period of three years."


Wayne:

I was looking at that today too, and it seems to get more interesting. It looks like Hazard contributed all the "Eastern Pennsylvania Notes" in 1910, and then in 1911 "Far and Sure" contributed seven months of the "Eastern Pennsylvania Notes" with Hazard contributing two months of "Eastern Pennsylvania Notes" with the other three months being under the pen name of Hazard coming as "Mid Atlantic."

In 1912 "Far and Sure" contributed eleven months of "Eastern Pennsylvania Notes" with the only other month of 1912 being Hazard from the "Mid Atlantic."

In 1913 Hazard contributed nine months of "Eastern Pennsylvania Notes" with Far and Sure contributing one month of the "Eastern Pennsylvania Notes" (the January 1913 contribution on Merion we think is Tillie) with two months by Far and Sure contributing the "Western Pennsylvania Notes."

As far as I can see the only time any of these pen names doubled up in one month under one regional heading was in July 1913 when the REGULAR Western Pennsylvania pen name "William Pitt" contributed to the "Western Pennsylvania Notes" in the same month Far and Sure did.

I guess it's possible that the same Western Pennsylvania correspondent contributed two sets of copy under two pen names but that seems sort of pointless.

If you ask me it was probably Tillie (or someone other than Tillie or the regular "Western Pennsylvania Notes" correspondent) who was out there filing copy in that region (perhaps Travis himself).

Then that was the end of the pen name "Far and Sure", and for the ensuing years the "Eastern Pennsylvania Notes" were under the pen name "Hazard" that I believe most everyone believes was Tillinghast. In Western Pennsylvania it was pretty much always the pen name "William Pitt."

It looks to me like some of the contributors used various regional pen names somewhat interchangeably probably for convenience depending on where they were at any time.

Whatever Mr. MacWood is trying to say or point he's trying to make doesn't seem very apparent does it? He said Far and Sure was based in Western Pennsylvania in 1913. Why would that be---eg because "Far and Sure's" pen name filed copy in the "Western Pennsylvania Notes" section for two months in the history of the magazine?

That doesn't sound like a very good reason to move to Western Pennsylvania and be based there for two months, does it? ;)


By the way, Mr MacWood, why don't you just tell us what the identity of Far and Sure is since you mentioned on a post on this thread that you knew it and you've never retracted that statement or even acknowledged questions about that statement even after being asked by a few people and repeatedly? And while you're at it why don't you explain the second part of that statement where you said you figured out "Far and Sure's" identity off some ship records? I really want to hear your explanation on that one because that really does sound like a pretty neat trick! ;)
« Last Edit: October 26, 2008, 01:43:43 PM by TEPaul »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #135 on: October 26, 2008, 01:35:24 PM »
Tom MacWood,

I know it sucks to be wrong, but get off it.

If I had written something on a popular public website challenging the historically accepted design attribution of one of the most famous courses in the world and had then been proven wrong, I'd have the integrity to take it down myself before others asked for it.    If nothing else, I'd amend it to reflect the fact that my contentions were in error.

Thomas MacWood

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #136 on: October 26, 2008, 01:39:21 PM »
You are a rotten human being, MacWood.  You are also an idiot when it comes to analyzing anything.  You just accumulate information, it is all you do well, and let others handle the data analysis. 

Based in Western Pennsylvania implies a sense of permanence.  That cannot be determined by the two articles published in AG.  As is often the case, your statements are either exaggerated, twisted or are downright falsehoods.

How many courses did Flynn have open in 1928?

Wayne
You call it whatever you want...based...living...visiting...working...the point is Far & Sure was in Pittsburgh for at least two months in 1913. Was Tilly or Travis in Pittsburgh in 1913?

Far & Sure was also on an ocean liner that was disabled, lost in fog for a week, and repaired at St. John's Newfoundland sometime around or prior to 1892. Was Tilly or Travis on ocean liner of this description?

This excercize really isn't that complicated...you guys are making this more complicated than it needs to be.

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #137 on: October 26, 2008, 01:51:20 PM »
Tom,

Could you please just state what you know regarding Far and Sure. Please.

TEPaul

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #138 on: October 26, 2008, 01:51:27 PM »
"Wayne
You call it whatever you want...based...living...visiting...working...the point is Far & Sure was in Pittsburgh for at least two months in 1913. Was Tilly or Travis in Pittsburgh in 1913?"


Mr. MacWood:

After all this American Golfer investigation we've all done recently it seems to me the most logical explanation for copy being filed in the "Western Pennsylvania Notes" section by the pen name "Far and Sure" is precisely that---eg Tillie or Travis (or perhaps another correspondence) was probably out there at that time. That would make the most sense since in one of those months the regular "Western Pennsylvania Notes" pen name--eg "William Pitt" also filed copy under "Western Pennsylvania Notes" section.  

Mike_Cirba

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #139 on: October 26, 2008, 01:56:31 PM »
"Far and Sure" tells us he played Merion East that day in the fall of 1912 with Hugh Willoughby and Howard Perrin, both fine players.

It shouldn't be too difficult to find out what they looked like, should it?   ;D
« Last Edit: October 26, 2008, 02:05:11 PM by MikeCirba »

Thomas MacWood

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #140 on: October 26, 2008, 01:57:08 PM »
TE
Travis and Tilly were both high profile men. It shouldn't be difficult for you confirm it, if they were in fact in Pittsburgh in 1913. And then once you do that you should be able to fairly easily find the infamous ocean liner incident. Let us know when you have all your ducks in a row.

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #141 on: October 26, 2008, 02:00:09 PM »
Tom,

I have no dog in this fight but if you are going to play coy, maybe you shouldn't participate in this thread.

TEPaul

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #142 on: October 26, 2008, 02:01:39 PM »
"Tom,
Could you please just state what you know regarding Far and Sure. Please."


Sean:

Unfortunately, I'm sure you realize, as most of the rest of the viewers on GOLFCLUBATLAS.com must realize at this point, that Mr. MacWood is just not going to do that. He not only probably won't explain it, he probably will not even acknowledge that he's been asked about twenty times on here to explain it. We've talked about him wasting everyone's time like this over the last five years but this must be the most glaring example of all.

He will probably just claim we are all being emotional or even hysterical or he may even try to include everyone who views these threads as being in some way associated with ME, and so he can't violate his "PLEDGE" to not help me or anyone associated with me in any way.

Mike_Cirba

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #143 on: October 26, 2008, 02:02:24 PM »
"Far and Sure" tells us he played Merion East that day in the fall of 1912 with Hugh Willoughby and Howard Perrin, both fine players.

Additionally, when "Hazard" (who we all was Tillinghast) wrote about his first playing of the brand-new Merion West course in the December 1913 issue of American Golfer, he played with Howard Perrin again.  (as well as Hugh Wilson and Rodman Griscom)   On that same page as the brief Merion West review there is a picture of Hugh Willoughby.   Those plus-fours and that stiff left leg finish sure looks familiar! ;)   See page 7 of 7 on this link

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1913/ag112l.pdf

Additionally, "Far and Sure's" other playing partner Howard Perrin seemed to prefer light colors  button down shirts, and long pants.

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1912/ag92k.pdf



TEPaul

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #144 on: October 26, 2008, 02:05:32 PM »
"TE
Travis and Tilly were both high profile men. It shouldn't be difficult for you confirm it, if they were in fact in Pittsburgh in 1913. And then once you do that you should be able to fairly easily find the infamous ocean liner incident. Let us know when you have all your ducks in a row."


Mr. MacWood:

I think anyone can see, at this point, that there is no reason at all for any or us to spend a single minute trying to prove or disprove or frankly do anything at all pertaining to another one of your fanciful and highly speculative scenarios and notions.
 
 
 

Mike_Cirba

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #145 on: October 26, 2008, 02:11:32 PM »
The observant reader might also note that in "Hazard"'s (Tillinghast) review of the Merion West course he states;

"Your correspondent went over to look at the newest layout for the purpose of describing it..."

Where have I heard this before?   Who else referred to himself that way...Hmmm..... ;)

Why, the "Far and Sure" article on Merion East begins;

"A number of years ago your correspondent was a passenger..."


Now, I find it odd that Walter Travis, who owned "American Golfer" would refer to himself as "your correspondent".   On the other hand, we know that Tillinghast was, in fact, a correspondent to the magazine. 


« Last Edit: October 26, 2008, 02:30:37 PM by MikeCirba »

Thomas MacWood

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #146 on: October 26, 2008, 02:12:25 PM »
There has been a lot of fanciful and highly speculative scenarios put forth on this thread, but they haven't been coming from me.

Mike_Cirba

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #147 on: October 26, 2008, 02:15:41 PM »
There has been a lot of fanciful and highly speculative scenarios put forth on this thread, but they haven't been coming from me.

Tom,

It just doesn't matter if "Far and Sure" was Tillinghast in the January 1913 article , although he certainly was.

The "American Cricketer" article by Tillinghast also contemporaneously tells us who designed Merion, from someone who had seen the design plans first-hand.

I have to wonder why you and David sat on that evidence all of these months.   ::)

TEPaul

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #148 on: October 26, 2008, 02:24:37 PM »
"There has been a lot of fanciful and highly speculative scenarios put forth on this thread, but they haven't been coming from me."


Mr. MacWood:

Most of what you've put on this thread is pretty much irrelevent to the question and discussion of Tillie writing as Far and Sure but there's no question at all that the most highly speculative and fanciful notion of all is that statement of yours that you know or knew (and conveniently forgot ;)  ::) (you've really got to be kidding to come up with that excuse)) "Far and Sure's" identity and that you figured it out from some ship records.  ::)

Don't worry, I do understand why you patently refuse to not only explain who it was (it's pretty clear you can't because you never knew who it was anyway) but also why you heretofore have refused to acknowledge any questions about it, and I expect you will continue to refuse!   ;)
« Last Edit: October 26, 2008, 02:27:30 PM by TEPaul »

Thomas MacWood

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #149 on: October 26, 2008, 02:27:41 PM »
Tom,

I have no dog in this fight but if you are going to play coy, maybe you shouldn't participate in this thread.

I beg your pardon. With all due respect what have you offered to this thread?

The problem we have here is the same problem we have had with the Merion story, the Pine Valley story, the Myopia story, the Heartwellville story, and others. Instead of approaching these problems with an open mind, logic and a healthy dose of scepticism, and then allowing the chips fall where they may, we have people approaching these subjects with very strong preconcieved ideas and an emotional attachment to legends. Instead of looking for new information, whatever it maybe, and following up on it, they spend all their efforts trying to prove what they believe is the truth. That is recipe for disaster if the truth is your ultimate goal, as illustrated by this thread. They have the clues, but they prefer to ignore them, since they don't appear to confirm their preconcieved ideas.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2008, 02:31:53 PM by Tom MacWood »

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