[Rich Goodale]

Just a wee anecdote....

10 days ago I played a normal club competition and shot 78.  The next day I played a 4-club competition (putter required--I chose driver, 6-iron and 56 degree SW as the other three sticks) and shot 77.  In both rounds I struck the ball Ok but not great--about what my scores reflected.  The point?

Well, when you have to hit 6-iron on every shot between 140-200 and try to skull a SW from 110-140 and feather a driver for everything from 200-250, exact distances mean diddly-squat.  The second point?

Some of my first conversations on this site 8 years ago--mostly with Dan "The" King--revolved around playing gowf rather than golf and using at most 8 clubs.  I have strayed from that ideal, but as I get older and find carrying 14 implements more burdensome and less efficacious, 2008-2009 will be a time of more bold experimentation.  I promise!

Good thread Bob

Rich

[Kalen Braley]

Geez Tom,

You just don't get it do you.  You need to sell your home, quit your job, tell the wife to quit hers, and pull up stakes and move to Scotland.  I'm sure Melyvn has a little cottage out back where he'll put you up for a few months until you can get back on your feet.   

And Melyvn, if Tom doesn't take you up on it, I will.  I'd love to move to your parts once the kiddies are gone and spend a few years playing golf as it was meant to be.  You can hire me as your gardner and I'll spend my off-time exploring the country side playing Scotlands finest.   

[Tom Huckaby]

Rich:

I've been down that road, having had the same discussions with Dan oh so many years ago.  For quite awhile my bag never had more than 8 clubs.

So let me save you some time, particularly because I know you do enjoy competitive success when it happens.....

It's fun in the short term for sure. Creating shots is good for the soul.  And one can surely produce some good scores.  However, in the long term.... it gets old after too many shots are lost trying to create a punchy 6iron when a normally struck 8 iron would do.

What the hell though, it is a fun experiment.  Just don't expect any different results.


Kalen:

Rich has been down that round himself, to his great benefit.  Sadly we all can't take that road. 

TH

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tom,

I hear what you are saying.  On the other hand, I can't imagine Jack or Tiger caring one whit if their opponent(s) came lesser prepared than they, preparation being viewed by each as one of their key advantages.  

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom,

I hear what you are saying.  On the other hand, I can't imagine Jack or Tiger caring one whit if their opponent(s) came lesser prepared than they, preparation being viewed by each as one of their key advantages.  

Fully agreed - note my last paragraph though - that is one of the many many many reasons they are they and I am I.

 

[Rich Goodale]

Tom

As usual you far too soon forget.... (ah, what the hell )..........

In this case it was Dan and I who were having the conversation and you who chose to butt in, taking the bait as naively as anybody who reads the Blue text in any of Pat Mucci's rants can be.  I'm glad that you finally came to grips with your limitations.  Enjoy those 14 clubs.

As for me, a "normally struck 8 iron" is as rare as playing my "A" game (which was defined by some sage once as "that game which reflects how you play only within the confines of your imagination.")

It will be some time before I go to 4 clubs, but I can see a bag of soft D, rescue, 5, 7, 9, SW, 64 degree W, P doing the 5-6 HCP job that my game is capable of these days, with far less hassle and far more fun.  But we shall see....

Rich

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom

As usual you far too soon forget.... (ah, what the hell )..........

In this case it was Dan and I who were having the conversation and you who chose to butt in, taking the bait as naively as anybody who reads the Blue text in any of Pat Mucci's rants can be.  I'm glad that you finally came to grips with your limitations.  Enjoy those 14 clubs.

As for me, a "normally struck 8 iron" is as rare as playing my "A" game (which was defined by some sage once as "that game which reflects how you play only within the confines of your imagination.")

It will be some time before I go to 4 clubs, but I can see a bag of soft D, rescue, 5, 7, 9, SW, 64 degree W, P doing the 5-6 HCP job that my game is capable of these days, with far less hassle and far more fun.  But we shall see....

Rich

Rich:

As usual your memories are unique to yourself.

 

And I was just trying to help.  I did indeed travel the road on which you are about to embark.  In the end it worked out as it did for me.  From what I gather you play competitively more than I do, so it's a fair assumption that it would work out the same for you; thus the friendly warnings / advice.  But as I say, it is a fun road while it lasts.  The bag you suggest sounds great to me. 

As for me, hell I don't get to play enough to care one way or the other, sadly.  I was just trying to help a friend.

TH

[Anthony Gray]

   


   This has been a wonderful discussion. I feel that opinions are neither correct or incorrect. Simply opinions. Everyone approaches golf and life differently. What ultimately gives you pleasure is hitting that perfect shot or manageing your game for a successful outcome. What you require to accomplish this is subjective.

  I think at the root of this discussion is what approach to the game gives you the most pleasure. Some see golf as a spiritual experience. Some see golf as a compition with themselves or others. But the fact is we are all members of the same brotherhood.

   I personaly find great pleasure in feeling the shot. Jeff touched on this. From 150 he might hit anything from a wedge to a 7. Others need exact yardage for a pleasureable shot. Have fun.

   

[Tom Huckaby]

Anthony - that's a nice sentiment, but you don't get off that easily.

Can't one do it different ways at different times?

Outside of competition, hell I need no distance, I enjoy feeling the shot as you do.  Then again sometimes it feels more right to play by distance.

In competition, I am so out of practice judging distances, and feeling the shot yields such imprecise results, that I don't trust it, so I play by distance.

I see ALL of golf as a spiritual experience.

The implication you still give is that one way is spritual, the other way cannot be.  That is what I protest against.

TH

[Melvyn Morrow]

Tom

This is getting confusing, I’m getting lost, so hopefully for the final time on this thread let me just say use what is legal, if you feel that you need aids and they are OK then use them.

I have from the beginning mentioned that each golfer has it within him/herself the ability to judge distances without any form of external distance info. A large proportion of courses have some sort of distance information but still quite a few do not display any. I do not have a problem either way, I just don’t use them. As for Spirit, I play in the time honoured fashion my family has played golf and like you I am more than happy with my game as I feel I alone achieve my goals unaided. That’s my choice, you also have a choice. In my opinion I think playing the game the way I do maintains the Spirit of the game when it became popular in the 19th Century and through this way of play I thoroughly enjoy my game. Yet it has become acceptable to use theses aids, toys or what ever you want to call them, I prefer not to and try to persuade others that the game has more to offer by using eye/brain co-ordination.

I am not locked in the past, far from it, I agree with using technology but to sustain the game not to gain an advantage. You seem to agree but want the best of both worlds, it’s allowed so use it. My concern is that unless we start to look realistically at all the aids available where will it end. As I said six month ago we may find ourselves sitting in the club house play golf on a computer screen - I certainly do not want that.

I have played in the jungle of Brazil at Belem on the mouth of the Amazon on a rough dirt course, I have played in Nigeria on a similar type of dirt course. I have lived in Burma, India, Jamaica and Brazil (Manus & Belem), so understand heat and humidity, but no I have not been to North America.

As for better times, yes I agree the financial position is crap, but golf in the UK is very well and gives a great choice of courses to play. I love the smaller courses you guys never seem to have time to play on your short visits to our islands, places like Warkworth in Northumberland (near the Harry Potter Castle in the films), Windermere in the Lake District, Cullen on the north coast near Inverness, Bridge of Allan near Stirling, Tain and many more. I don’t live in the past, but in the present and would love the opportunity to introduce you and all the other guys to our little hidden gems that make the game fun. Some of these courses have hardly been touched since the days of Old Tom, certainly Bridge of Allan which has only had some minor changes. That Tom is my world of golf, which I would indeed like to share and encourage others to play at their leisure.

Don’t dismiss us because we just disagree with you. You may find that you are in truth not that far away from the way we play our game. Also why do so many travel to the UK yearly to play our courses? Those who don’t play the course but play their normal game find that they initially do not enjoy our game, but that’s because they have not relaxed and understood you have to play the course.

Whatever, don’t leave it to long before venturing to St Andrews as the Old Course according to some may be under water in less than 50 years.

PS If that water does manage to get over the 18th Green on TOC I might just get my wish of a full funeral on a Viking Longboat, fully alight as it travels into the North Sea. Only problem I see is that I will have to be frozen for some years as I do not expect to see 2050. Anyone know how long it take to thaw out from frozen and what the additional amount of wood might be needed?

[Tom Huckaby]

Melvyn:

As we tend to say in the US corporate world, I believe we have found our disconnect.

You say:

Don’t dismiss us because we just disagree with you. You may find that you are in truth not that far away from the way we play our game.

I have tried to explain:

a) I don't dismiss you at all; I am just trying to get you to understand that our realities are different from yours.  I've said repeatedly your way is the superior.  It just cannot be done much over here.

b) I absolutely believe we are in truth not that I am in truth not that far away from the way you play your game - that is what I have tried to get you to understand.

So you see, I was under the impression it was you who dismissed me.  I know we are not that far apart in how we treat the game.  Seems you are getting this now, which is great.

Just understand you are advising me to do things I have already done.  I've played the famous and not so famous on your shores.  I am far far more connected to what seems to be called the "sprituality" of golf than you want to give me credit for.  And it's OK, it's understandable as you know me not.

I just don't think you have much of an inkling about the realities of US golf.  Again that is OK, you're better off not knowing.

Just don't assume that if one deals with the realities here, he necessarily has no golfing soul or has mislaid the spirit of the game.  That is dismissive, and at times requires defense.

On all of the rest, I really believe we agree.

TH

[Jeff_Brauer]

I was wondering whether Melvyn uses a caddie when playing. The better caddies at TOC see their man tee off and after the first shot hand him a club. No talk of distance, wind or elevation, a five iron is handed over and nine times out of ten it works. Of course the caddie has walked and played the links for fifty years and doesn't have to have a yardage chart...he is the yardage chart.

Bob

Reminds me of playing in Scotland and I had well over 200 to a green.  I tugged at my 4 wood and caddy pulled back.  "Wrong Club"  I said I needed all of that to reach the green and he replied, "Yeah, but you're a wee bit off on ya woods today, so I am giving you a three iron."

[Anthony Gray]

I was wondering whether Melvyn uses a caddie when playing. The better caddies at TOC see their man tee off and after the first shot hand him a club. No talk of distance, wind or elevation, a five iron is handed over and nine times out of ten it works. Of course the caddie has walked and played the links for fifty years and doesn't have to have a yardage chart...he is the yardage chart.

Bob

Reminds me of playing in Scotland and I had well over 200 to a green.  I tugged at my 4 wood and caddy pulled back.  "Wrong Club"  I said I needed all of that to reach the green and he replied, "Yeah, but you're a wee bit off on ya woods today, so I am giving you a three iron."

  Oh for the day when we have a better feel for our game than our caddys.

[C. Squier]

I was wondering whether Melvyn uses a caddie when playing. The better caddies at TOC see their man tee off and after the first shot hand him a club. No talk of distance, wind or elevation, a five iron is handed over and nine times out of ten it works. Of course the caddie has walked and played the links for fifty years and doesn't have to have a yardage chart...he is the yardage chart.

Bob

Reminds me of playing in Scotland and I had well over 200 to a green.  I tugged at my 4 wood and caddy pulled back.  "Wrong Club"  I said I needed all of that to reach the green and he replied, "Yeah, but you're a wee bit off on ya woods today, so I am giving you a three iron."

  Oh for the day when we have a better feel for our game than our caddys.

Isn't depending on a caddy the same as depending on a yardage?  If giving up yardages makes you a mentally stronger player, then one must also forgo the caddy's advice.  A great caddy is so much more valuable than a generic yardage as (for reasons show above) they have years of experience that no yardage plate can give.  I can't imagine ever having fun with a caddy GIVING me the club to hit and not giving it a moment's thought myself. 

I agree w/ Melvyn, golf is about challenging yourself as much as it is the course.  A yardage plate gives you static information quicker, but a device (either electronic or human) that factors in variables such as slope/wind/other conditions is contrary to the game.  I'll gladly hand over every yardage helper before I hand over my ability to decide/play the shots I want to hit. 

[Kalen Braley]

I must admit, while I don't "like" guessing yardage on my approach shots, I do enjoy reading greens on my own and processing all the information on my own.  Its a puzzle of sorts to see if I can figure it out.

But my putter is the best tool of war, so maybe I'm just biased that way.

[Tom Huckaby]

I like to make putts.  I tend to make more when another gives me the read.  What happens is I read it myself, then if I get confirmation I get super-confident.  Confidence helps in making putts.  So give me a good caddie there!

And Clint, well said.  Just remember (as I doubt I really have to point out, but can't help it) that "a device (either electronic or human) that factors in variables such as slope/wind/other conditions" is not only contrary to the game, it's contrary to the rules.  An electronic device that just gives distance information more quickly is within the rules, and I've argued that it's also not contrary to the spirit (so long as courses remain marked; take away all markings and then of course these have to go also).

TH

[Anthony Gray]

[/quote]

Isn't depending on a caddy the same as depending on a yardage?  If giving up yardages makes you a mentally stronger player, then one must also forgo the caddy's advice.  A great caddy is so much more valuable than a generic yardage as (for reasons show above) they have years of experience that no yardage plate can give.  I can't imagine ever having fun with a caddy GIVING me the club to hit and not giving it a moment's thought myself. 

I agree w/ Melvyn, golf is about challenging yourself as much as it is the course.  A yardage plate gives you static information quicker, but a device (either electronic or human) that factors in variables such as slope/wind/other conditions is contrary to the game.  I'll gladly hand over every yardage helper before I hand over my ability to decide/play the shots I want to hit. 
[/quote]


   Clint,

  Very well stated. Golf has many more variables besides distance. It is such a greater game than to be controlled by distance with club selection.

[Kalen Braley]

I haven't used many caddies like others on here, but I just can't see getting on board with someone handing me a club unless they've caddied several rounds for me first.

Just tell me the yardage and I can calculate in weather, uphill/downhill, lie, low shot/high shot, etc., on my own.

If we're going to debate the spirit of the game, then a caddy should be silent at all times, and not give one bit of help to the player other than carrying clubs, filling divots, and raking bunkers.  Getting information from a caddy or a SkyCaddy is the same in my book...it all involves an outside agency.

[Anthony Gray]

I like to make putts.  I tend to make more when another gives me the read.  What happens is I read it myself, then if I get confirmation I get super-confident.  Confidence helps in making putts.  So give me a good caddie there!

  What I like about caddies over lasers is that they have heartbeats.

[John Burzynski]

Sometimes I think a caddy is as valuable for the conversation, comedy relief and overall perspectives on the course, rather than just the expected yardages and shot help or sore-back bag carrying relief. 

Some of these guys are real characters, and they can really make an experience on course special and memorable. 

[Doug Siebert]

I agree with John re: caddies.  I don't buy this mythical caddy who can club you fine after watching you hit one or two shots.  That probably works well in hindsight because most Americans are out of sorts playing a links course in the blustery Scottish winds and if they put the ball on the green they must have got the right club.  Nevermind that the greens at TOC are the size of the playing surface of sports stadiums so there's a 4-5 club range that will put the ball somewhere on the green!

You can come up with all the examples of caddies clubbing you perfectly after watching two practice swings but I have a counterexample from personal experience in my first visit to Carnoustie, with a caddy who had been looping there for over 30 years.  Actually two counterexamples in the same round...

I was having a devil of a time with duck hooks on the front nine and when we had to wait a bit on the 10th tee I figured out what I was doing.  Once the group in front started moving he cleared me to hit and I cracked a beaut right down the middle, which one hopped into the head of one of the caddies in the group ahead (he was fine, but pissed at my caddy for letting me hit)  Then on the 16th, playing 235 that day into a 25 mph crosswind he hands me a 5 iron.  I couldn't imagine getting there with that club in the wind even accounting for the fact I'd land it a bit short, grabbed a 4 iron instead, and made my first ace!

[Anthony Gray]

   With this topic fresh in my mind I headed off to the low-ball this weekend. I played with players that used both GPS and lasers.

   My obsevations were as follows. People have different swing thoughts. I was standing over my ball after looking at my shot with the thought I am going to hit an easy 8 iron( a three-quarter punch ). When one of my playing partners says "119". So now instead of having "easy eight" in my head I have "119". I could barely pick-up the club. I realize that some players have distances in their heads while others do not. These distance guides did speed up play.

   

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