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JMorgan

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Junior tees
« on: October 14, 2008, 07:38:40 PM »
Below is an image from US Kids Golf with the recommended tee distances for Levels 1-3 (see uskidsgolf.com for the level descriptions):



My oldest son is itching to play on a real course, but I have yet to run across a course with junior tees or fairway tee plates other than the typical front or ladies' tee. 

Have any of the architects out there ever built tees or designed tee areas for junior golf? according to these specs? 

Who has played on a course(s) with junior tees or tee areas? 

Wouldn't wider adoption of junior tees help the game?



Bart Bradley

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Re: Junior tees
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2008, 08:30:26 PM »
The Sea Marsh Course at Hilton Head had true Junior Tees until the Heron remodel.

My son has played some great golf courses...I just simply teed him up whereever it looked best...middle of the fairway, on top of a dune...etc.  Invent your own junior tees (the only hard ones are where there is a forced carry as the only option into a green.

Bart


Gene Greco

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Re: Junior tees
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2008, 08:40:54 PM »
My son has played some great golf courses...I just simply teed him up whereever it looked best...middle of the fairway, on top of a dune...etc.  Invent your own junior tees
Bart

Bart:

   Echo. Well done.

My modus operandi for many years.

Now he's fifteen, weighs 135lbs and hits it 315.

                            Gene
"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

Bart Bradley

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Re: Junior tees
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2008, 08:54:36 PM »
Gene:

Yeah..Matthew is now 13 and just getting ready to explode in physical size and strength...He only hits it 200 now..but in two years, watch out.

Here he is, age 11, teeing up in the fairway at Banff Springs ...eat your heart out Tom Doak  ;).

Congrats to you Gene...it sounds like you have as many important and cherished memories as I do of spending time with my son.



Best,

Bart

Brad Huff

Re: Junior tees
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2008, 09:04:24 PM »
JMorgan

Absoulutely it would help junior golf!  I agree with the above to just throw it in the fairway any place that looks appropriate.  I know at JV Girls tournaments (I'm a high school golf coach), we'll place the tees in the middle of the fairway to make the course a little more fair.

Another alternative are executive courses if you have any in your area.  We have one here in north Dallas that's lit at night.  7 par 3s and 2 short par 4s.

Joel_Stewart

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Re: Junior tees
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2008, 09:12:17 PM »
I'm told that Gleneagles, a 9 hole golf course in a rough part of San Francisco is placing junior tees to accomidate the First Tee kids.

Bill_McBride

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Re: Junior tees
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2008, 09:39:28 PM »
We have those junior tees at Pensacola CC and they are used in the summer clinics and by families every day.  They are inobtrusive, being 4" diameter plates about 6' apart in the fairway.  Good stuff.

Bruce Leland

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Re: Junior tees
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2008, 09:50:35 PM »
Rochester Golf & CC in MN  was the first course I played with Junior tees in the fairways.  I have since seen them at many clubs and think they are a wonderful idea.  When my girls were younger, I had them tee it up from level spots in the fairways at various yardages. 
"The mystique of Muirfield lingers on. So does the memory of Carnoustie's foreboding. So does the scenic wonder of Turnberry and the haunting incredibility of Prestwick, and the pleasant deception of Troon. But put them altogether and St. Andrew's can play their low ball for atmosphere." Dan Jenkins

Trey Kemp

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Re: Junior tees
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2008, 10:52:19 PM »
We have done several courses that have junior tees, the holes range anywhere from 50-250 yards.  Here are some of the courses:

Prairie Lakes Golf Course - Grand Prairie, Texas
Oak Grove Country Club - New Boston, Texas
Cleburne Golf Links - Cleburne, Texas
Kiahuna Golf Club - Poipu Beach, Hawaii

Overall it has been very positive and we have gotten some good feedback.  Here is an interesting article written on junior tees:

NOTHING SHORT OF PROGRESS
ClubCorp champions a new set of forward tees
Feb 1, 2008
By: David Frabotta
Golfdom

ClubCorp is making its golf courses shorter and easier. Way shorter, less than 5,000 yards in most cases. 

What would inspire this stark contrast to the rest of the industry? The answer is member recruitment and retention, crucial components to growing the game.

In an effort to shorten rounds and offer more flexibility for beginning golfers, ClubCorp is installing far-forward tees as part of its Short Course Initiative.

It's no secret that golf demand is flat, and golf courses are closing faster than they are opening for the second-consecutive year. The biggest reasons, sources say, stem from time scarcity.

Thus far, the industry has responded to America's virtual time poverty by building longer, tougher golf courses, which largely have cannibalized shorter, easier layouts. That trend has hampered rounds at public facilities. And private clubs are experiencing a shakeout, too. Fewer traditional country club members are willing to forgo weekends with family to golf as often as they did in the
past. 

"My father was an avid golfer. I can't image the amount of laughter that would have taken place if I asked him to give up his weekend golf to watch me play soccer," says Frank Gore, ClubCorp's executive vice president of membership and sales. "Conversely, my daughter played
soccer for six years without ever scoring a goal, but I never missed a game. It's different now, and we saw a lot of this prioritizing what's important after 9/11."

Indeed, golf was never better around the turn of the millennium. But its current slump has many industry observers wondering if it will ever return to its glory days. Myriad task forces, think tanks and even formal entities have been devising ways to grow the game. The result has been a host of marketing initiatives, but the really big changes — like shaking the game of its traditional six-hour obligation — has been largely academic with the exception of a few golf courses.

That's about to change. This spring, more than 90 of ClubCorp's managed properties will offer a new set of forward tees, typically 100 yards closer to the green than the previous forward tees.

"We're trying to get people to play a nine-hole round in an hour and 15 minutes or less," Gore says. "It's not just for kids and for beginners. It's also for people with less time. You're basically playing a high-quality, 3-par course, which provides a combination of speed and lower difficulty."

With each year, more members are downgrading their memberships from golf memberships to less-expensive social memberships, Gore says. Of those who keep their golf memberships, more of them are playing a mere 18 rounds to 24 rounds a year. That's about $400 per round with dues. That's a tough sell considering the glut of upscale daily-fee or semi-private courses that opened in the past decade, most of which can be played for about $100, depending on the market.

In an effort to reverse that trend, ClubCorp knows that members who regularly show up to use at least part of the club are more likely to retain their full memberships because they perceive more value in club amenities and facilities than infrequent users. Far-forward tees allow members to use the facility more often: Dad can play in about an hour after work and still attend evening obligations, or kids can play along with dad without holding up play. Both scenarios keep members coming to the club more often.

Only a big management company like ClubCorp can give a program like this a national identity and help it root among average golfers, but the idea of forward tees is not new. In New Boston, Texas, The Oak Grove Golf Club, owned and operated by Jeff Prieskorn, has operated with kids' tees for almost a decade.

When Oak Grove hired golf course architect John Colligan to build a second nine and refurbish the original nine in 1998, Prieskorn thought it would be a good idea if his oldest son (now age 18) and his friends could have a place to golf without holding up the pace of play. So he installed tee boxes on the sides of fairways adjacent to landing areas used by golfers hitting from the traditional tees. He hid them with mounding so they wouldn't be a distraction from the back tees.

Eventually, the golf course's reputation grew as a kid-friendly place, and kids helped supplement historically slow tee times, mainly in the evenings.

"We have kids as young as 8 that play by themselves," Prieskorn says. "Many of them play faster than the men because their holes are so short."

The semi-private Oak Grove has 250 members, and Prieskorn says membership growth and retention has been better than competing golf courses in the area because the family golf concept is such a good selling point when potential members inquire about joining.

Others at the club are starting to use the far-forward tees, too. Families and area high-school golf teams often use them for practice. And one senior member — 92 years young — was close to retiring his clubs before Prieskorn offered him the short-course perspective.

"He was frustrated because he could barely hit the ball out of his shadow anymore, about 100 yards off the tee," Prieskorn says. "He was ready to quit, and he told me, 'If I can't play, then I'm going to go home and die in my La-Z-Boy.' "

Thanks to the forward tees, that member continues to hit the links.

The concept has worked so well for Oak Grove that Colligan Golf Designs has mimicked the layout for several other clients. "

It doesn't take much of a sell because it doesn't cost anything during the renovation process, and it offers some flexibility on the course as well as a marketing tool down the road," Colligan says.

The Prairie Lakes Golf Course in Grand Prairie, Texas, a municipal facility, features new junior tee boxes by Colligan. The tees are used by men working on their short game and beginners as well as kids. Its 27 holes allow the course to use the forward tees on nine holes on slow days while maintaining a regulation golf course for traditionalists.

Colligan helped christen the new tees with a round of golf after his job was done — nine holes from the men's tees and nine holes from the far-forward tees.

"I'm not sure I played much different from the forward tees," he says. "What I noticed was it helped with the intimidation factor, and it brought a lot of the fun back into the game. Golf should be enjoyed, not endured."

ClubCorp isn't exactly flying blind on the private club side. The company already champions The Clubs of Kingwood (Texas) as the most kid-friendly complex in the country, so it has some experience empowering its junior members. At the Shores course at The Clubs of Kingwood at Atascocita, kids actually get to drive the golf car thanks to a fleet of 20 special vehicles that feature a courtesy brake on the passenger side. The facility also has family golf cars that allow foursomes to ride together.

The Shores course completes its setup with tee boxes, fewer bunkers and one-height mowing for fairways and rough. Only tees and greens are mowed differently to make it easier for juniors and novices.

But unlike most of its properties, Kingwood has 117 golf holes, which allows ClubCorp to dedicate its nine-hole Shores course to family golf and kids play. But Shores will be the anomaly in the ClubCorp portfolio. For now, the company's other properties will simply mow out teeing areas instead of building tee boxes, and it will complete the teeing area with ball washers and benches. That way, each facility will be able to gauge adoption by measuring rounds and gathering feedback from members before constructing new tees that might not be used.

"Kingwood has had a very good increase in retention, so that's one of the key components driving this," says Mark Burnett, executive vice president of the golf and country club division at ClubCorp. "The more that you can give the spouse or the kids ways to increase the country club-usage patterns, then you can build the longer-term benefit of retaining and recruiting golfers."
Burnett is charged with implementing the Short Course Initiative. He's begun the process at a handful of clubs so far, and he expects each of the company's more than 90 clubs to be up and running this spring.

Burnett says the short-course concept is just one incentive to bolster value for club members. He's also consulted with clubs in his portfolio to create three-hole and six-hole routes, as well as upgrade practice facilities when appropriate.

All the initiatives aim to alleviate the time commitment that traditional golf requires. Golf purists likely will resist many of the changes coming down the pike. But amid slowing demand, shrinking supply and an uncertain economy, the game might need to change to ensure its survivability.

"There are some people who are in total denial about golf and think that it will come back to the level it was," Gore says. "But we (at ClubCorp) don't believe it will unless we change."
twitter.com/TreyKempGCA

Tony Ristola

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Re: Junior tees
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2008, 07:33:45 AM »
Just have them hit from the forward tees. If it's too much, have them drop a ball in the fairway. Change par for them.

Most young kids either want to play badly and a few more shots won't matter, or they'll get tired and just walk along.

I don't see a need for yet another set of tees.

paul cowley

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Re: Junior tees
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2008, 08:00:02 AM »
JM.....If the course has 100, 150, 200 and 250yd markers, I use them as reference to create the hole and give a bit of structure to a short course. 100 and under-par threes. 150 to 200-par fours. 250-par fives........but still mix it up liberally!....or conservatively!....or libertarianally!

....is there a debate tonight? ;)
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Bill_McBride

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Re: Junior tees
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2008, 08:40:18 AM »
JM.....If the course has 100, 150, 200 and 250yd markers, I use them as reference to create the hole and give a bit of structure to a short course. 100 and under-par threes. 150 to 200-par fours. 250-par fives........but still mix it up liberally!....or conservatively!....or libertarianally!

....is there a debate tonight? ;)

Tonight is the talent competition.   ;D


Tom Huckaby

Re: Junior tees
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2008, 10:40:30 AM »
Joel particularly may be pleased to hear that two local Bay Area courses have tees much like this for Juniors.

Santa Teresa (my beloved home course) has two sets of short tees on each hole - a pretty much Level 1 and a pretty much Level 2 (as per US Kids model).  They are real tees too - not just markers on the fairway.  They have unique angles and are very fun. 

Coyote Creek seems to have a Level 2 on each hole, not quite as nicely done as Santa Teresa, but still they exist.

I've taken my 10 year old to play each course and it works VERY well... I can play my tees, he can play his, we both can have a lot of fun.

I wish more courses would do this.

TH

JohnV

Re: Junior tees
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2008, 06:45:27 PM »
I've seen a number of courses with junior tees. 

Some are simply tee markers that are placed in the fairway and moved around as needed.  Haggin Oaks' Arcade course had some when our Junior Tour was there last month.

I've also seen some courses with pairs of small round disks permanently placed in the fairways to be used as tee markers for these courses.  I can't think of any examples right now, but I know I've seen them this year in CA and last year in PA.

At Pumpkin Ridge, they had Junior day on Wednesday mornings and would put tee markers in the fairways for that, but they weren't there all the time.

As others have said, go to an executive or par 3 course or just let them tee it up somewhere in the fairway.

JMorgan

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Re: Junior tees
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2008, 10:00:26 AM »
So I take it, then, the consensus is pretty much just let kids tee it up in the fairway?  (Yeah, I've done as several suggested above BTW ... just wanted a starting point for the narrative.)

Do you think adding junior tees to a course would add or subtract revenue from the club? 

Should the USGA support the effort in some way to grow the game? 

How much does it cost to construct and maintain a tee? 
 


Matthew Rose

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Re: Junior tees
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2008, 10:06:12 AM »

I lived in Lincoln, NE when I was little. They actually had a par-3 course there which was called the Junior Golf Course and they gave tee time priority to kids. As far as the design goes, it really wasn't anything different to your normal, run of the mill par-3 course (holes were 100-160 yards), but instead of mens and ladies tees, you had "boys" and "girls" tees. A family friend of ours ran it in tandem with one of the city munis for awhile in the 70s and 80s.

At the time you weren't allowed on any of the other city courses until you were 12, so if you were younger than that and wanted to play, that was the only game in town. I'm not sure if that still applies or not.

American-Australian. Trackman Course Guy. Fatalistic sports fan. Drummer. Bass player. Father. Cat lover.

Bart Bradley

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Re: Junior tees
« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2008, 10:27:36 AM »
So I take it, then, the consensus is pretty much just let kids tee it up in the fairway?  (Yeah, I've done as several suggested above BTW ... just wanted a starting point for the narrative.)

Do you think adding junior tees to a course would add or subtract revenue from the club? 

Should the USGA support the effort in some way to grow the game? 

How much does it cost to construct and maintain a tee? 
 



I don't think junior tees are the answer.  A thoughtful parent can choose the starting point for the hole based on the age and ability of their child.  As I stated above, teeing the child up at the appropriate distance in the fairway works great and now that my son is getting bigger and better, he is on the forward tee.  There just is too much variation even as my own children grow for one junior tee to be best for all juniors.

Bart

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