[Ed Oden]

FYI, here is a picture of the approach at C-2...


JES, correct me if I am wrong, but it actually pays to get as far to the end of the dogleg as possible (about where the above picture was taken) in order to open up the approach to the green since the short side of the dogleg brings the front bunkers more into play. 

Here is another picture from behind the green which shows the opening.

[JESII]

Ed,

True...and they are working on that wetland/hazard area there. To me, that is the one negative on the hole because those that cannot get around the corner off the tee, or are off to the right have to deal with this dumpy little cattail area on an otherwise manageable hole for those that prefer to tack around the course in one or two more than "regulation" par.

In my opinion, when you are in the fairway at 190 - 210 looking up at the green you are facing one of the premier approach shots in the region, and that alone mutes the fact that you just hit a 4 iron to get there...

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

loks like a great hole.
the view from behind the green really gives an impression of the uphill nature.
Pretty dramatic

[Andrew Mitchell]

http://www.royalbirkdale.com/hole1.asp

The opening hole at Royal Birkdale  takes driver out of your hands of most people , but is truly a great opening hole.
You can though be brave and hit driver down the left side if you desire, so I dont really know if this counts?

It depends how far you hit your driver!

I played Birkdale this summer, ten days after the Open.  I had originally intended to go with a 3 wood in an attempt to counter OOB down the right and first tee nerves (video cameras about as it was a corporate event!) but on seeing that the hole was playing 430 yards I doubted I could reach with two 3 woods.

I hit driver into the right hand first cut, opposite the left hand bunker on your plan, and from there found the green with a resue 3 iron.

I would agree its a great opening hole, which tests you from the start, rather similar to Muirfield.

[Jim Tang]

My home course, Orchard Valley, in North Aurora, Illinois, has a hole like this.  # 13 is a long par 4 with the fairway bisected by a large, 30 foot ravine/wetland.  This ravine is perhaps 250 yards off the tee, so you've got to layup off the tee.  Generally, your second is from about 200 - 215 yards to a green that is open in the front.

At first glance, I've never really liked the hole.  It forces you to play it one way, and one way only.  Carrying the ravine is really not an option.  But, over the years, I've come to appreciate it.  With technology today, many guys never hit a long iron into a par 4.  They are hitting short irons or even wedges into many par 4's.  By creating a hole like the 13th at OV, the player is forced to hit a longer iron to a par 4 at least once in the round.

Would I want to play multiple holes in a round like this?  No.  But, playing a hole like this once in a round is okay with me.  I think it offers a fuller examination of one's game.

[Jeff Shelman]

Part of my reaction to the course I played yesterday was that both holes were essentially dead straight holes. One had a little bend to it, but there wasn't a great advantage to be on one side of the fairway or the other.

The HVCC hole is at least a dogleg where there is an advantage if you can keep the tee shot near the inside of the corner.

I would be ok with one of these holes, but two of them seems a bit much.

The course for those of you who are curious is Olde Liberty Golf and Country Club, just north of Raleigh NC.

[Mark Pearce]

Generally I am not a fan of these holes and the 18th at Slaley Hall's Hunting course fits into this category.

The hole is downhill to a ravine, requiring a long iron lay up from the tee.  It is then a three wood (or more) to reach the green.  The ravine is blind from the tee which, on first play, can cause you to lay up further back than necessary resulting in the green being out of reach for your second shot.

It's worth pointing out that the second shot to the 18th (even from an ideal lay up) is steeply uphill, played from a downhill lie and requiring right to left ball flight.

The 13th on the Hunting is an even worse example.  There's a lake in the middle of the fairway, so you lay up (in a dryish summer (and Slaley is never very firm and fast) I might hit 7 iron from the yellow tees or 5 iron from the whites) short of the water and then hit a much longer club (for me often a utility club of 4 iron) to the green.  Rubbish hole.

The 8th on the same course requires either a blind drive over trees to a sloping fairway with a stream crossing it or a 5 iron down the fairway followed by a 3 iron (again off a downhill lie) to an elevated green.  Another poor hole.

[Mike_Cirba]

The 2nd hole at Jim Engh's True North in northern MI features a "layup strip", which precludes driver on the long downhill hole.   

[John Chilver-Stainer]

Jeff what’s your grouse??

If you take the risk and go left on the first hole you can play your 250 yard drive and have a 25m reserve before your catch the water. That leaves you 174m to the Green - a shorter second shot and an iron.
If you decide to play cautious and avoid the risk by going right at say 225yards with a fairway wood you still have a shorter second shot of 199 yards - that’s your choice - the one your complaining you don’t have??

On the second hole with 239 yards to the ravine it’s again offers a choice - how close do you want to go the the ravine? Let’s say hit it to 210 yards leaving a 19 yard safety margin of error. So now you have 202 yards - still a shorter second shot?

Maybe you are playing too cautiously and not maximising your oppurtunities. 

These 2 holes appear to be well designed giving the oppurtunity for the golfer to make it in 2 if he gets his tee shot close enough to the layup hazard.

Or do you believe all 14 long holes on a par 72 course should offer a risk free landing area for your personal driving length??

[Steve Hyden]

Brings to mind the first hole of the head-scratchingly highly rated Lake Jovita north of Tampa.  465 from the tips and 421 from one-up, a gulch bisects the fairway, forcing a layup off the tee and, for most, a hybrid or long iron approach off a downhill lie (unless you find the flat spot that's about the size of a beach blanket).  Mostly not a fun way to start the day.

[Doug Siebert]

As a not-long driver of the golf ball, I tend to love these holes, as it negates one of the advantages guys like Benham have over me. 

If I hit the ball farther I think I'd dislike them more.

But more seriously... I'd say a hole or two like this in a round of golf isn't necessarily a bad thing.  Too many of them would get annoying.  But too much of any one feature is usually annoying.

TH

I don't know that it really negates the advantage as much as you may think.  In fact, for a par 4 over 400 yards like the examples given it might be a bigger disadvantage for you.

The first example had a hole of 424 yards with water 245 out.  If you assume a conservative shot played 225 then that's 200 yards left.  A longer hitter is hitting a middle iron, a shorter hitter a fairway wood.

However, the advantage could be even larger than that, because there's usually a nice 'buffer zone' of rough before your ball drops into doom, so as long as it leaves the fairway rolling its safe.  If the example hole was like that and the rough isn't too bad, I could hit a longer shot and not worry if I happen to roll into the rough at the end, since I'd be hitting a 6 or 7 iron.  Yes, a shorter hitter could pursue the same strategy and not worry about rolling into the rough, but he's hitting a hybrid or wood which will be affected more negatively by the rough.

Contrast that with the same hole with no hazard.  A long hitter is probably hitting a wedge of some sort, a shorter hitter perhaps a middle iron.  I would guess that given a longer and shorter hitter of the same handicap, the difference between the results of the long hitter's wedge and shorter hitter's middle iron is probably similar to the difference between the long hitter's middle iron and the shorter hitters fairway wood.  I would think the shorter hitter would only have an advantage if the hole were shorter so the shorter hitter can hit a short iron or wedge.

[Tom Huckaby]

Doug:

Guys with a large distance advantage over me are hitting wedge into every par four.  If something makes them NOT hit wedge, it's an advantage for me - they're way out of their comfort zone.  They're also pissed off they couldn't blast their driver.  Simple as that.

Your examples do work against me, though.

TH

[Ronald Montesano]

I began the thread thinking "What a stupid thought!"  Then I realized, yes, these holes should exist.  The game has gotten away from us and holes that were driver holes in the past, no longer are.  So be it.  Nature isn't a fair dealer, so learn to hit your hybrids and fairway metals well.

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