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archie struthers

Hidden Creek revisited
« on: June 18, 2002, 07:18:32 PM »
;) 8)

Was lucky enough to play Hidden Creek again, a new Crenshaw Coore course here at the Jersey shore, and really enjoy the golf course. Kudos to C&C and owner Roger Hansen on a job well done. The golf course is pretty, has some super holes ( my favorites are #2,11 &15) #11 is a particularly neat short par three (110-130 yds uphill and is reminiscent in some ways to 17 at Sand Hills) nad the people working there treat you very well. I think the golf course is a little harder than is apparent at first blush, with the back tees making you pay attention to tee shot placement. The greens are huge!!!!! with typical attention to detail that Coore & company are famous for. My guess is that when they get a little older they could really be fun to putt, and tough!

Whn we finished playing we were talking about our favorite holes with some of the members, and I opened my big trap that I didn't like the 8th hole, a driveable par four. Of course this was after I clearly expressed my appreciation for the golf course.  There ensued a friendly argument that I didn't understand the hole, which I certainly didn't accept, being a resident know it all on most subjects, and certainly on golf!!!

Why is it that many of our brethren think it so sacriligious to
question an architects thought process on a certain hole or green, despite the obvious difficulty in building eighteen holes that work together. I had to don my flak jacket while discussing the hole, despite my obvious respect for a job well done.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dave_Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hidden Creek revisited
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2002, 07:29:47 PM »
To: Archie Struthers
Unfortunately I am  not familiar with Hidden Valley.  Can you provide some details.  Is it Public, is it private, what part of the Jersey shore is it located in, etc.  Can one get on.  I get to the Jersey Shore in the summer and would like to try it if possible.
Best
Dave Miller
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dave_Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hidden Creek revisited
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2002, 07:32:00 PM »
Archie a fruedian slip after reading Ian's Post.  I mean Hidden Creek.

Cheers,
Dave
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hidden Creek revisited
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2002, 07:33:46 PM »
Archie:
Whats the old saying about taking their women and drinking their booze but don't ever talk bad about someones golf course.  I have had my head handed to me many times especially on this web site as well as been on the other side defending my home course so don't take it personally.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

archie

Re: Hidden Creek revisited
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2002, 07:40:19 PM »
Dave,


Hidden Creek is a new, private club about 20 minutes from Atlantic City, NJ.  Perhaps your club pro could call the club and get you on, I'm not certain. I went as the guest of a member. As I said, it is a very nice addition to the lineup here in South Jersey.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dave_Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hidden Creek revisited
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2002, 07:45:33 PM »
Archie:
Thanks for the info.
Dave
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Hidden Creek revisited
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2002, 07:58:13 PM »
Archie,

I was also fortunate enough to play Hidden Creek earlier this year, and have been surprised it hasn't generated more discussion here than it has, given C&C's general popularity among this group.  Perhaps enough folks haven't played it yet, but I'd encourage anyone who has the opportunity to take advantage of it.

It is not a course that cries out to be noticed from a visual standpoint.  There is little in the way of architectural histrionics to woo or cajole the golfer into falling under its spell.  It does not almost cry out to be loved, as so many modern courses do.

Perhaps an apt comparison might be Pinehurst #2.  Built on similar terrain, not exactly flat but something less than "rolling", most of what is there is very subtle, very natural, low-key, classy, and deceptively easy-looking.  You're correct in assessing that the greensites are where most of the challenge begins, and what one must learn and be aware of while placing drives and approaches.  

And no, even that comparison breaks down because there are few Hidden Creek greens with the severity of #2.  Instead, they are just all different in some unique ways, containing all sorts of subtle internal contours, as if someone had just mowed a piece of ground without much thought to creating shaped features.  Minimalist, to say the least.

In my opinion, the best of the course can be found between the 6th and 12th, although a few of the early holes are more dramatic, such as the short par four second, guarded by a somewhat uncharacteristic man-made, gnarly mound to a fall away green, the par five 3rd around a deep sandy depression, or the redan-like 4th.  

The combination of the 10th, with a blind approach to a deep green that screams for a running approach, the short 11th that you mentioned to a wonderful green, and the long par four 12th where challenging the bunkers on the left sets up the approach are all wonderful, and as solid a three-hole combination I've seen.  

However, I must admit that a few of the final holes had me scratching my head, and I'd like to understand them better.  For instance, you mentioned that 15 is one of your favorites, but I drove through the fairway there into the end bunker and found my approach totally blocked by trees, which is not apparent from the tee.  What was it that you found so appealing there?

Fourteen is seemingly the most simple, innocuous par three one can imagine, and just looks like a flagstick sitting out there in the middle of nothing about 200 yards away.  It is only when one gets closer to the green that you can tell that the green is oriented much more diagonally than is apparent, and is about 3-4 clubs in depth.  Talk about a hole where knowing the exact yardage is critical!!

However, the one that really made me wonder was 16.  I still have no real idea what the architects envisioned there, as it simply seems to be a long, straight, par four which, while demanding, didn't seem to offer much in the way of strategy.

One other note about Hidden Creek.  I understand that the design theme was meant to hint at a Heathland course, with the type of "pop up" bunkers built by Colt or Fowler, and the look of the bunkers is uniformly excellent, with rough-hewn surrounds.  They are most definitely hazards to be avoided.  The par five 17th is literally a mine-field of them, and probably captures that look the best of anything out there.  

I hope to get back there to learn more about the course, particularly those holes whose subtleties may have escaped me the first go round.  

As to your point about the 8th, I did like the uncertainty of the blindness on the drive.  However, probably like yourself, I couldn't really see where much of the "risk" was on this risk/reward hole, even with the suitably rolling green.

All in all, however, not only is Hidden Creek a superb addition to golf on the Jersey shore, but it's also the type of course that I imagine the members will play over and over without tiring of its charm and subtleties.  Like an old sweater, I'm sure it will wear well with time.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:06 PM by -1 »

Geoff Shackelford

Re: Hidden Creek revisited
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2002, 08:03:22 PM »
Archie,
I loved the 8th at Hidden Creek and think it's really wonderful. It's going to provoke thought, discussion and repeat playing interest. BUT...it's disappointing you weren't able to express your views. The 8th is a very unique hole. The green is about the wildest thing Coore and Crenshaw or any other modern designer has done. I can definitely see why some might not like it or find the options not to work after a couple of rounds, and I would assume the locals would expect some negative reactions. If not, they should get used to it and consider such reactions a compliment to their club. Because the course is SO different looking, SO interesting and has SO many holes worthy of discussion, there are going to be many different views. How many new courses can we say that about these days?
Geoff
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Hidden Creek revisited
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2002, 08:07:48 PM »
Geoff,

I agree that the 8th green is superb, but what I was perplexed about was simply where the risk was on the drive?

There seems to be plenty of room, even with the center bunker feature at the crest of the hill.  There seemed very little reason to layup.

Your thoughts?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Geoff Shackelford

Re: Hidden Creek revisited
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2002, 10:06:57 PM »
Mike,
I liked the notion that #8 was a slug away kind of hole for good players. I felt that the missed drive left would be penalized with a pretty severe right to left stance, a tough lie to hit a high, soft landing wedge shot. I enjoy that kind of subtle penalty, and I would think over time it would make the hole more interesting for regulars without playing too penal. Of course, to the right off the tee is in big trouble with the trees.

So I guess I would ask, does their have to be a clear cut lay-up or swing away option situation (for better players anyway) in order to make the hole legitimate? I know we had a similar discussion here with #'s 3 and 12 at Rustic, and I guess I just don't have a problem with people having the feeling that they can swing away all the time on certain short 4's. Because I think over time that kind of setup may lull someone into carelessness more than they might realize. And I'm also assuming with such swing away holes that the green is calling on a precise approach. Certainly with #8, I wouldn't want to be left with a right pin near the "pimple" in the green, or the other way around, right approaching to left or left center holes.
Geoff
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hidden Creek revisited
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2002, 06:22:48 AM »
I visited Hidden Creek and was lucky enough to be driven around the course by Jeff the Super.  It was one of my favourite courses to look at on the whole tour of the US.

I always forget what the bunker man is called but he has done an amazing job and Jeff is doing a great job looking after them.

I just hope that Jeff is allowed to let the course dry up and look a little brown so that fast and hard will be the main defense of the course.

If the course is allowed to get rugged and dry it will look and play even better.

Another star from the C&C crew.

Brian

I took about 80 pictures but I don't feel it is correct to post them here without asking the Hansen family first.  I will send them a letter and ask.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Mike_Sweeney

Re: Hidden Creek revisited
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2002, 06:32:43 AM »
http://www.hiddencreekclub.com

There are a number of pictures posted on the club's website.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Hidden Creek revisited
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2002, 07:07:31 AM »
Unfortunately, the website pictures were taken during construction and don't really do justice to the course.  I also snapped a few when I was there and they came out pretty well.  

In looking at them, my dad's succinct comment was simply, "now this looks like a course that I would really enjoy".
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Hidden Creek revisited
« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2002, 07:31:14 AM »
Geoff;

You raise a good point in reminding me about our discussion on the 12th at Rustic Canyon, another short driveable par four without much apparent risk to the tee shot.

In thinking about it, I think what makes that one work so well is the fact that the hole angles left, a little like 12 at Pine Valley, and the fact that you CAN see the green from the tee.  There is this HUGE expanse of fairway out to the right, but seeing the green over on the left really tends to PULL the golfer that way, towards what is really the worst angle possible to approach that green.  

It takes some real discipline to aim away from the ultimate target there, as it's counter intuitive to the way the hole "looks" like it should be played.  Great mental games on that one, in my opinion.

#8 at Hidden Creek is a bit different.  One is faced with an uphill shot to a blind green.  The fairway is rather wide, yes, but a bunker is cut dead center at the crest of the hill, and is the aiming point for someone going for the green.  The first time through, one is faced with much uncertainty as to what lies beyond, but that will be mitigated by repeat member play.  I was almost green high, slightly left, and had a "below feet" approach (being lefthanded).  I only walked away with par, but my short game is admittedly non-existent.  

I just left the hole wondering why I'd ever lay up, particularly since that would leave a blind approach.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hidden Creek revisited
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2002, 08:48:24 AM »
Based on the pics from the web site, the course appears very similar in nature to C&C's other low-country-type sandy-based course, Chechessee Creek.  Has anyone played both?  I'd be interested in how similar/different they are.

I've played Chechessee, and it was very low-key, with little earth moved, except the greens.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

archie struthers

Re: Hidden Creek revisited
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2002, 12:05:21 PM »
8) 8)

Geoff

Like you I thoroughly enjoyed Hidden Creek and like Mike thought number ten was a real neat hole also. Mike on 15 you have to shape or "fit"  yoour tee shot to take advantage of your length, but it still is very playable for those who need to hit wood or long iron in to the green. Also, it is a very good green , with a lot of break, but puttable.


As to # 8, if you can hit it 275+ there is little or no risk to smash away. I just think that it would be better if there was more risk to the reward. I'm not enamored with the green as much as the others on the golf course, but thats me! There are plenty of things at Twisted Dune that I'm not happy about but I certanly don't have a problem talking about them.
I would guess Bill and Ben wouldn't care about talking why either. My argument was with a friend of mine who fancies himself an expert. He just couldn't convince me that the chip shot or putt made the hole exceptional. It brings me back to the post labeled the "architect has no clothes" where only those not in the know would dare pose the question!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Geoff Shackelford

Re: Hidden Creek revisited
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2002, 12:58:04 PM »
Archie,
You bring up a good point about Coore and Crenshaw. In my experience, they would be pleased that you are even talking about the hole and expressing a view, that's a sign they did something provocative, even if you didn't find it to your liking. Remember Dr. MacKenzie was shocked that no one had a problem with Cypress Point, he was concerned because it was different and there should have been some descending views. I would suspect they are the same way. C&C and "the boys" are the first to admit they are simply trying their best and one never knows who these things are going to come out or how they'll be received or how they'll play, which is one reason many of us admire their work and humility so much. They also rarely ever get it wrong. :)
Geoff
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hidden Creek revisited
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2002, 01:00:35 PM »
Brian,
  I played Hidden Creek about 3 weeks ago and walked away with a great big smile!! I, too loved the bunkering and the man behind them is Jeff Bradley.(I actually played with him) I loved the fescue rough and their uniformity. I thought that the 8th hole was really awesome...my drive was just off the left side of the green.It's not a big bang golf course, ie The Black, Friar's, but it's just all around solid that would be a great club to be a part off. I also thought that the staff was very friendly. Can you believe that the clubhouse now is only temporary and will become a cart barn.....I wouldn't mind washing clubs and carts in there!!!!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hidden Creek revisited
« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2002, 01:26:04 PM »
Anthony,

I was stunned when I heard it wasn't the clubhouse as I thought was perfect in style and size!!  That building is the same size of nearly all Norwegian clubhouses!!

Brian
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hidden Creek revisited
« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2002, 06:26:41 PM »

Quote
Because the course is SO different looking, SO interesting and has SO many holes worthy of discussion, there are going to be many different views. How many new courses can we say that about these days?
Geoff
Well I can think of one that just opened up right next to Happy Camp park.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Mike_Sweeney

Re: Hidden Creek revisited
« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2002, 06:59:13 PM »

Quote
8) 8)

There are plenty of things at Twisted Dune that I'm not happy about but I certanly don't have a problem talking about them.

Archie,

I played your course in early April and loved it. Having grown up during summers at The Shore as a kid it was really a nice change from the typical Shore course cut through the Pine Barrens. What would you do differently?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Hidden Creek revisited
« Reply #21 on: June 19, 2002, 07:52:57 PM »
Archie,

Other than placing two ground level, center-fairway pot bunkers about 30 or so yards short of the 18th green, ala Muirfield's 18th (as I suggested when we played...;)..similar to the ones on 12) ), I can't think of too much more I'd suggest changing at Twisted Dune.  You need to add some interest to that final approach, in my opinion, and a carry option would excite higher handicappers.  Into a stiff breeze, it would also need to be factored into the equation for better players.  

Oh yeah, we also talked about another back tee on nine, or perhaps two...one on the "cape" diagonal and another straighter-on.

I can't think of too many courses where I'd suggest less changes. :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Hidden Creek revisited
« Reply #22 on: June 19, 2002, 08:07:53 PM »
Sorry for interfering on this thread about Hidden Creek--a course I hope to see soon. I, like Geoff, have nothing but great things to say about C&C and their abilities to so gently persuade conversation with a myriad of GREAT golf holes up for the task.

They are simply the best. (And yes, I'm partial because they are the best.)

Mike, Yes, the 12th at Rustic is harrowing to come into fro the left, but I would also like to add that it has nothing to do with the shape of the green in comparison to the contours and the invisable downhill tilt of the hole itself. It was unfortunate that we didn't get to play the front pin placement on GCA day there. It is not only a very intriguing shot in, but just trying to prevent the ball from rolling off the back of the green makes one WANT to go practice there bump and run game even more!

Then............

Try putting "up" that downhill contour while your golf ball is carrying a sign saying, "I'm on my way to the Regan Library!"
While this may be a one-shot hole for some, there-fore in their minds--too easy--I can assure you that I can either make par or double boogie with little effort.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:06 PM by -1 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Hidden Creek revisited
« Reply #23 on: June 19, 2002, 08:18:52 PM »
Sir Tommy,

The hole location provided on GCA day was harrowing enough, right up on the upper knob and full of intrigue and suspense.

However, you do bring up an important and almost visually imperceptive point about Rustic Canyon, and that is the "canyon effect" where the holes "down canyon", such as the 12th, play about 20% more downhill on all shots than is apparent and visa versa.  

All in all, I can't think of too many greens that are more dangerous to approach directly while appearing almost benign from the tee.  Our friend Don Mahaffey probably won't mind me mentioning the fact that it's no picnic to overshoot the green either.  He nailed one from the tee that carried beyond and finished with a double on this seemingly innocuous hole.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled program, "Golf at Hidden Creek".  ;) 

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:06 PM by -1 »

TEPaul

Re: Hidden Creek revisited
« Reply #24 on: June 19, 2002, 08:57:33 PM »
To hear some of you say that Rustic's #12 GREEN has real meaning and can be harrowing depending on a number of things--ie tee shot position relative to pin position is music to my ears. I truly hope the green has meaning that way and real variety of such depending on where the pin is because in my mind the entire strategy and meaning of that hole is all about the green since the tee shot is a completely unpenalizing golfer's choice and a very wide one at that! The fairway is not supposed to have any direct tee shot meaning in and of itself--it's meaning is  only as it relates to the pin position on the green, in my understanding. Isn't that basically so Geoff? That was the somewhat chancy concept that was visualized, correct?

Archie:

#8 Hidden Creek!? I like that you have some issues with that hole but I would like to hear more from you other than just--"If one can hit the tee shot 275 yds......etc". So what if they can? Do you think the hole is a pushover if a golfer can do that with regularity?

I think if the tee shot is one that is totally unpenalizing that fact should possibly be considered (as to enhancement)--but most carefully! Geoff Shackelford's thought that the tee shot may not have much risk or penalizing effect may be part of the charm of that hole and in a way the hole may be something akin to Rustic's #12 because of that fact! But like Rustic's #12 if the tee shot is a golfer's choice and an unpenalizing situation there does have to be something about the hole that holds all the meaning (and interest) in a scoring sense!

I watched that hole get developed and built and I loved the concept of it and I love the look of it too. It's look is quite unique and I was hoping it's play would be too! There certainly are some strategic issues of blindness and probably lie to a degree but my hope and my understanding was that the radical contour in the front center of the green may hold most of the meaning of #8. I never really analyzed the pin positions of the entire green but it's my hope when Hidden's greens get up to speed that that radical contour in the green may create most of the strategic consequence on that hole--both in the tee shot, approach shot (no matter how close you get) and also with putting!

To me there's not much better than when one single architectural feature carries the day on an entire hole. This is the way that center bunker eating into the green form on Rustic's #13 is going to be--I hope--and how cool is that to have something that small influence most of the strategy on such a big wide and long hole.

I'm hoping that radical contour on #8 Hidden's green will do the same! But if it doesn't do it's job properly, I'm sure the hole could be easily enhanced!

Frankly, I always wanted to see some really interesting bunkering lining all the way down the left side of #8 Hidden, particularly way down there and maybe even eating into the fairway here and there along the left side. I'm a conservative player on short holes and I thought doing that might put some pressure on the conservative play and force the golfer's hand into trying the more risky "go at the green" option. But if that's the way the hole develops that aggressive play has to have some kind of "direct or indirect tax" as Max Behr liked to say!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:06 PM by -1 »