[Jeff Shelman]

This may be my biggest hot-button issue.

I played a course today from one tee up from the back (6,733 yards). The course featured several pretty cool holes. But it also has two par 4s over more than 400 yards where hitting driver wasn't an option for me. I'm not a long hitter by any means as I probably average in the 250 range.

These weren't holes where there were cross bunkers or the like, but holes with massive ravines that went all the way across the fairway. The first was 424 yards and the second was 412 yards.

On the first hole, it was 245 downhill to the water on the right side of the fairway and about 275 downhill to the water on a little isthmus of fairway on the left side. The second hole was 239 to the ravine.

I understand if an architect wants you to have to hit it in a certain spot if you want to hit driver or if he wants to create doubt/confusion in the player's head. But these two holes simply make me shake my head and seriously question the routing that was chosen. I like choice on a golf course, but there was no choice here.

It reminded me of the 16th at the Harvester, a hole I dislike on a course I otherwise love.

Yes, it is a housing development course, but it would seem as if there might be better options. I would be more forgiving if it happened once, but once on each side seemed a little much. Especially when the first hole (a 380 par 4) also is a questionable driver (I hit one there as it was into the wind).

Am I missing something here?

[Mike Benham]

No ...

But Olympic has two, maybe 3 longish par-4s where hitting driver may not be the best option as a tee ball not shaped to the dogleg of the hole, will bound into the rough.

[Rick Shefchik]

Hi, Jeff,

Care to name the course?

[Tom Huckaby]

As a not-long driver of the golf ball, I tend to love these holes, as it negates one of the advantages guys like Benham have over me.  

If I hit the ball farther I think I'd dislike them more.

But more seriously... I'd say a hole or two like this in a round of golf isn't necessarily a bad thing.  Too many of them would get annoying.  But too much of any one feature is usually annoying.

TH

[PThomas]

reminds me of when Jack was at Merion for the 71 Open, where he hit very few drivers during the tournament..someone asked him how he felt about it and he said (paraphrase):  " Where does it say you should hit driver on par 4s?"

[Anthony Gray]

 


   It is my belief that your secound shot on a par 4 should never require a longer shot than your tee ball. Equally I think it is not mandatory that every player finds every par 4 reacheable in two.

[wsmorrison]

Anthony,

The C-2 hole at Huntingdon Valley CC (Flynn) may just alter your negative view of second shots being longer than the first (Tillinghast referred to these as Cart Before the Horse Holes).  It is an excellent par 4 where I hit 4 iron off the tee and 3 or 5-wood to the uphill green with a R to L slope that kicks the ball onto the green.  The green itself is very demanding.

[David Stamm]

For some reason, number 8 at Pebble springs to mind for this.

[Ed Oden]

Wayne, HVCC C-2 was the hole that immediately sprung to mind for me as well.  Generally, I don't like forced layups on long par 4s where there is no other option.  But that is more because of what I would describe as poor execution of the concept than a problem with the concept itself.  If done right, I see nothing wrong with it.  The key to me in pulling it off is that the layup off the tee has to be both challenging and interesting.  In my opinion, the concept fails if the tee shot is of a ho-hum routine nature.  In other words, the tee shot has to be just as demanding and interesting as hitting a good drive.  C-2 is a perfect example of doing it right.  Pick the wrong club off the tee or mishit it slightly and you likely will not find the opening to the green for the second.  More importantly, even as a layup, the shot still has a risk/reward choice.  An aggressive play close to the creek makes for a reasonable second while every yard erred to the conservative side makes par more wishful thinking than realistic proposition.

Ed

[mike_beene]

I can think of a few holes that didn't used to have this problem before the game got away from us.

[TEPaul]

The C-2 hole CONCEPT at HVGC apparently was a revolutionary concept by Tillinghast. He even named the concept---eg "The Cart Before the Horse".

It should be mentioned that if Flynn's hole on C-2 HVGC was a borrowing or conceptual copy of Tillinghast's idea, the C-2 hole, at least when finally restored after the C-9 had been in obsolescence for close to 60 years, is very much considered to be highly controversial.

Of course if Flynn's original C-2 HVGC hole allowed for a high risk option of driving left across the creek the perception of the hole may be entirely different. But we do not know if the C-2 hole originally offered that option. It basically doesn't today.

[paul cowley]

I call it a' "lay up hole "where the  best option for your second shot is to get as close to the hazard as possible to make the succeeding shot easier by virtue of its lesser length.....all the while having to choose the right length club that will leave you short of  the hazard, but not so safe as to create a very lenghty second.

A good strategic risk and reward and hole..

[JNC Lyon]

My favorite example of this is the 15th at Garden City, with the massive cross bunker at the 290 mark from the tee stifling long tee shots.  I think it works here because the short hitter can easily negotiate the cross hazard, strategy still exists using the terrain, and the green is open to any sort of long approach.  This combination of a cutoff landing area and a diabolical green means that this par four will stand the test of time.  For me, this hole is superb.

[Bob_Huntley]

reminds me of when Jack was at Merion for the 71 Open, where he hit very few drivers during the tournament..someone asked him how he felt about it and he said (paraphrase):  " Where does it say you should hit driver on par 4s?"

Someone should get out the four round cards of JackNicklaus in the Eisenhower, World Cup Amateur Tournament, held at Merion in 1960. He absolutely decimated the course and all records thereon.

Two members of our club in Rhodesia played there that year and came in eighth, an incredible showing when one realized that maybe there was less than three thousand golfers in the country at that time.

One of them , John Drysdale, the county's amateur champion, said that he had never seen such a display of power and precision as given by Nicklaus in that tourney.

It would be intersting if Tom Paul or Pat Mucci could find out if some members at the club remember the event.

Bob

[Sean_A]

I generally don't like the concept of the cart before the horse, but that doesn't mean there aren't good examples of it.  Many castigate St Enodoc's 10th because of the narrow neck at the landing zone with water dead left - then the golfer is left in a position of having to sling hook a 3 wood and he likely still won't reach the green.  I admit the hole is crazy, but I like it.  Though, I would prefer it if the land was a bit more helpful in moving the ball to the left.  Mind you, I think the flat bellies wouldn't have much problem because they can likely reach the wider part of the landing zone.  Even if they can't, their second would be with something like a 5 iron rather than a 3 wood.

Ciao

[Terry Thornton]

Someone should get out the four round cards of JackNicklaus in the Eisenhower, World Cup Amateur Tournament, held at Merion in 1960. He absolutely decimated the course and all records thereon.

Bob

Bob,
just looking at the programme for this year's Eisenhower. Nicklaus still holds the lowest individual score in the history of the event; 269 - 66, 67, 68, 68

[Adrian_Stiff]

I dont think its a problem provided that the second shot is not longer than the tee shot... ie a 4 iron from the tee then the 3 wood. Unless its such an interesting landscape, that situation rarely seems to work. Pebbles 8th works great but that is a rare landscape and I suspect downwind its only an 8 or 9 iron going in.

[Jim Nugent]

No ...

But Olympic has two, maybe 3 longish par-4s where hitting driver may not be the best option as a tee ball not shaped to the dogleg of the hole, will bound into the rough.

Mike, #5 -- and what else?  14? 

[Anthony Gray]

For some reason, number 8 at Pebble springs to mind for this.

   I hit driver up the hill.

[Anthony Gray]

Anthony,

The C-2 hole at Huntingdon Valley CC (Flynn) may just alter your negative view of second shots being longer than the first (Tillinghast referred to these as Cart Before the Horse Holes).  It is an excellent par 4 where I hit 4 iron off the tee and 3 or 5-wood to the uphill green with a R to L slope that kicks the ball onto the green.  The green itself is very demanding.

   Wayne ,

  Great hole. No absolutes.

[JESII]

Anthony,

The hole gets lambasted by 99% of those that play it. Very few like it at all.

Maybe for that reason, but hopefully for some other reasons, I really like the hole.

It does have the one glaring negative a few on this thread have highlighted...in almost every playing, the second shot will be longer than the first...if not in actual yardage then in playable yardage. From the back tee with no wind, a 215 or 220 shot will get you down to the center of the opening for the approach, if you hit a really bold one along the water you're left with 190 to a green 25 or 30 feet above. If you are not so bold from the tee you might be at 220 to a green 30 feet above.

[Andrew Mitchell]

Generally I am not a fan of these holes and the 18th at Slaley Hall's Hunting course fits into this category.

The hole is downhill to a ravine, requiring a long iron lay up from the tee.  It is then a three wood (or more) to reach the green.  The ravine is blind from the tee which, on first play, can cause you to lay up further back than necessary resulting in the green being out of reach for your second shot.

[BCrosby]

JES II -

Is the second shot blind from the left side of the fw?

Bob

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

http://www.royalbirkdale.com/hole1.asp

The opening hole at Royal Birkdale  takes driver out of your hands of most people , but is truly a great opening hole.
You can though be brave and hit driver down the left side if you desire, so I dont really know if this counts?

[JESII]

JES II -

Is the second shot blind from the left side of the fw?

Bob

No, as long as you reach the corner (about 190 from the current tips). The trees in the drawing have grown for the last 80 years...and are now protected because within their confines is the Northernmost specimen of a Virgina water maple or some such thing.

The fairway landing area is really very interesting...the right side has a very strong kicker down into the center, but it doesn't quite get you over to the creek so you're left in the 200 or 210 neighborhood with a potentiall downhill lie (not ideal, but how else can we get the ball to kick closer to the green?). So I am really tempted to hit it right along the tree/creek line to get into the flat portion of the fairway at 190 or 200...and that's where the risk is from the tee.

The hole can be played very easily as a short par 5.

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