[RJ_Daley]

Here is a link to the Nor Cal course with a semblance of a Frank Lloyd Wrong club house design.

http://www.madison.com/wsj/home/column/moe//308796

We've had some discussion on this clubhouse in the past.  The article mentions the fact that the golf course design was lousy, overly difficult, and tough to maintain. 

Does anyone actually know anything about that course called The Dragon, at Gold Mountain Resort?  Who designed the course; is the club house actually functional; is it remodellable, etc?

[Joel_Stewart]

Its a long story but this course has been in financial trouble for a while mainly due to family squabbles and cooking the books.

As far as the course, its designed by Robin Nelson and is so overly hard that its not any fun.  It's been discussed here a number of times.

The clubhouse is a Frank Lloyd Wright design which as the article says was originally designed for a course in Wisconsin.  What I found amazing was not only the building, but Wrights interior, the furniture, doors and everything that goes with the original Wright design.

[David_Tepper]

Joel -

It was not uncommon for Wright to design the interiors (including furnishings) as well as the exteriors of his buildings. He was very much into creating a "lifestyle" for his clients, well ahead of the Martha Stewarts and Ralph Laurens of our time.

DT       

[Pat Burke]

Never played the Dragon, but have a few pretty reliable friends in the area that also mentioned that, while being a pretty nice course visually, there were some pretty stupid shots.  And these are pretty good, mini tour level players.  SOunds like the general public didn't want to get beat up regularly.
Based on what things sound like in the Inland Empire (socal), we'll be hearing about a lot of course BK's

[Sam Maryland]

I suspect that Pound Ridge is going to suffer mightily...

...I bet the bank that made that loan is sweating.

SM

[Rob_Waldron]

I have spoken to Robin Nelson about the Dragon. Apparently the owner wanted the course to be ridiculously difficult despite Robin's efforts to convince him otherwise. Robin indicated that it would take about $1.0 -$2.0 million to remedy the course. Considering the Real Estate development around the course has dried up the course has little value as it is. Another ego gone wild!

[Adrian_Stiff]

I cant see there being any new development in the Western world for a while (maybe 5 years) unless the backers actually have everything in cash, I cant see there are many of them, stuff on the drawing board is probably going to stay there unless the situation is pretty unique. Lots of the newer projects looking for private members will probably have to severely readjust or face the sword. There is probably going to be a big lull in new golf courses now except in SE asia.

[RJ_Daley]

In looking at the aerial, the remote location and what appears rugged terrain seems like a real gamble, since it is so far off the beaten path from the ski resorts of Truckee and Lake Tahoe.  It must have a really short season as well.  Hole corridors look interesting, but even from aerial seem like a difficult course to play.  And, it is the typical parade of homes or lots, cartball ride through the development.  All that sounds like a formula for disaster.  Pity, because it looks like a lot of work is going to waste there.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=348+Bear+Run,+Clio,+CA+96106&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=21.955062,36.5625&ie=UTF8&ll=39.767942,-120.522251&spn=0.010358,0.034161&t=h&z=15

[Aidan Bradley]

[Steve_ Shaffer]

[Peter Wagner]

RJ,

I was thinking the same thing - it seems very remote to be successful.  I wonder who they were trying to sell homes to?  I'm guessing this was to be a < $1M summer home community for people from the Bay area.  Closest airport is Reno about an hour away.

Google searches show the many lots for sale around this course... for example, 1.3 acres mostly flat asking price is $135k on the 14th hole.

Even if you bought it cheap in the foreclosure, what could you do with it to make a profit?  Long term real estate play could take 8 to 10 years to work through and all the while losing big dollars in negative operational budgets

One of the toughest things about this one is the very limited season.  Per their website, the season "soft opens" on May 15th depending on weather.  It looks like the real season is June, July, August, and maybe 1/2 of Sept.  On average you would see 100-120 days of golf revenue per year.

On the plus side, this is a beautiful part of the world and the clubhouse is very cool.

[RJ_Daley]

Aidan's photography certainly does the place proud.  What an enchantingly illogical
place for a golf housing development!    That clubhouse alone looks like it was
one very expensive construction project.  I'll bet without intense care, that beautiful clubhouse will
go down the tubes fast in that climate. Those FWs look like it would cost a fortune to maintain,
and the photos look like they were doing quite a maintence job at that point. 

What a pity...

[Tim Leahy]

I played the course twice, once right after it opened about five years ago and last year when they were trying to soften it up.  When it was new it some of the best greens in all of California conditioning wise. The course was difficult but not unplayable and has some great views. The area has four other courses and with some good marketing could have become a resort destination. They got greedy and tried to appeal to upscale clients and high rollers from Reno.

[Peter Wagner]

This course has the exact opposite problem that a Palm Springs course has.  Retirees leave the desert in May and start to return in late September.

Weird idea:  what if you were to find a desert club that you could buy cheaply and somehow combined it with this Northern Cal course? 
Maybe offer a combined membership... call it a 'Lifestyle Membership' or something.  Winters in Palm Springs and summers in the mountains.
Build condos instead of houses in NoCal and offer May and September shuttle service for the members and employees.

[RJ_Daley]

Peter, that is a lovely idea!  Sign me up, as soon as my portfolio starts picking up. 

[Peter Wagner]

Peter, that is a lovely idea!  Sign me up, as soon as my portfolio starts picking up. 

Hmm, yes there is this pesky failing economy thing.  Maybe we can combine it with Cuba's economy and offer a Lifestyle Citizenship...

[Jed Peters]

I dunno, I played it from the tips when it opened and suffered mightily, barely breaking 90.

But I can say this--I had a good time playing it. It was pretty fun.  Yes, over the top hard, but kind of fun from a weird perspective.

[RJ_Daley]

Jed, what sort of design features would you say were the most difficult to cope with and score on?
Were the trees a big and obstructive factor in making very demanding shots, or the placement and
countouring of bunkers and collection surrounds into hazards?  One wonders what architect Nelson
objected to constructing in the way of hazards and playing corridors based on his best design judgement,
that the owner demanded.

[JSPayne]

I think we might be a bit illusioned by the article that the course is "closed."

I know for a fact that as "The Dragon" they didn't survive, but as somebody already mentioned, they softened the design and reopened as "Nakoma Golf Resort." I've been itching to play this since it opened and have even promised my dad I'd pay his green fee once we got there. Problem is, we never have. That tells you part of the course's problem....location, and short season.

Thing is, there is a new abundance of courses just up the hill a ways in Truckee that seem to be doing just fine. Granted, everyone has had a harder year than most, but two new properties just opened up there and the arrivals of the past decade seem to be holding their own. Just played Old Greenwood on Monday and it was gorgeous and in as perfect shape as I could have wished.

What these Truckee courses have that Nakoma doesn't is alternate entertainment. The little housing that is on Old Greenwood are cabins, most for rent, which works out perfectly for a golf weekend. Also, the proximity of the Lake and all it's trappings and with Reno right over the hill, a mini golf vacation to these courses seems very doable. I think Nakoma, and several others like Darkhorse, were trying to compete in this market and also capture the Sac Valley and Bay Area folk making their way up the hill for a round going or coming. Should the real estate market still be strong, I have no doubt that these homes and lots would sell, as it's not a far cry for a upper class family to live from Sacramento City proper, but far enough removed to really feel like you live isolated in the mountains.

Anyhow, all that being said, their website says stay tuned for their Spring 09 opening dates......so there's hope I may get to play it yet!

http://nakomagolfresort.sports.officelive.com/default.aspx

[Jed Peters]

Jed, what sort of design features would you say were the most difficult to cope with and score on?
Were the trees a big and obstructive factor in making very demanding shots, or the placement and
countouring of bunkers and collection surrounds into hazards?  One wonders what architect Nelson
objected to constructing in the way of hazards and playing corridors based on his best design judgement,
that the owner demanded.

There were (what seemed like) long carries from the angles of the back tees, tremendous mounding that seemed to kick slightly missed shots off into hazards, raised-type green complexes that seemed to repel shots and made the greens appear smaller than they are, huge bunker complexes, etc.

Kind of like those mid-80s Nicklaus courses it seemed like--every iron shot was a 200 yard cut shot, etc.

[David Stamm]

I've always thought this was one of the coolest clubhouses I've ever seen. Of course, since I'm a FLW fan, I'm biased.

[Tim Leahy]

Jed, what's the latest on Morgan Creek? I haven't read anything in the local papers regarding it being opened to the public or if anyone was interested in buying it.

[Jeff_Stettner]

The area near Graeagle can support golf (see Whitehawk Ranch) -- it's not that remote. The golf should be appealing, however (see Whitehawk Ranch) and the Dragon was unwalkable, extremely difficult and, in the end, exhausting. The bones of a good golf course are there even if it would still require carts. I hope they are able to revive the property. And the clubhouse is very cool. 

[Sam Maryland]

what's the latest on Hamilton Farm?

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