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Jon Wiggett

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Are the USGA losing the plot
« on: September 30, 2008, 08:32:41 AM »
To take a discussion taking plaace on another thread about returning scores even in a matchplay situation for handicap purposes is this showing a fetish like tendency of the USGA towards strokeplay?

To me, it should be clear to anyone with even the slightest inclination about golf that matchplay requires such a totally different approach to the playing of the course that it makes any possible strokeplay result irrelevant. What do others think about this?

Secondly. Could such an approach to the game by one of the most important golfing bodies affect GCA and how?

TEPaul

Re: Are the USGA losing the plot
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2008, 09:08:15 AM »
Jon:

As you should be able to see on JVB's really good reply #25 on the other thread it may not just be the USGA and their "gross score" reliant handicap posting system that is responsible for a real "single round gross score" mentality on the part of so many American golfers. It really isn't that appropriate, in my opinion, to try to blame everything on the USGA!  ;)

If the American golfer really does have a fixation on a single round score I don't know that there is that much that the USGA could to about it anyway or whether they should even try.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are the USGA losing the plot
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2008, 09:20:00 AM »
TEP,

Does the american golfer have a fixation about the a SRR. Who wrote this rule?

you maybe right about USGA being entirely to blame for this mentality but they might carry some of the blame. The bigger they are the harder they fall ;) I am not sure which way it flows in the golf world. Is it the USGA reacting to the demand of the golfer or are they laying out the path? I for one feel that it is the governing bodies (USGA, R&A, PGA's, etc.) responsibility to find the balance between a healthy money flow to help grow the game whilst retaining and defending its heritage and interest of play at the same time. NOT AN EASY TASK but they all chose it.


Ken Moum

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Re: Are the USGA losing the plot
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2008, 09:25:37 AM »
Does the american golfer have a fixation about the a SRR. Who wrote this rule?

I don't knw who wrote it, but in the reading I've done, I have several times come across quotes from 100 years ago, berating American golfers for their "card and pencil" mentality.

And you certainly can't blame the USGA's handicap system for that.

K
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

TEPaul

Re: Are the USGA losing the plot
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2008, 09:31:26 AM »
"TEP,
Does the american golfer have a fixation about the a SRR. Who wrote this rule?"


Jon:

SRR? What is that? And whatever it is, what Rule is it?

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are the USGA losing the plot
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2008, 09:59:08 AM »
TEP,

SRR should have read SRS and is short for Single Round Score. I am just to lazy to right the whole thing out but seems like I have had to wright a whole lot more ::) Previously you couldn't return a handicap score card in Matchplay but now you can it seems. Who wrote this rule? I'm putting my money on the USGA or/and R&A ;)

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are the USGA losing the plot
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2008, 10:11:31 AM »
Jon:

As you should be able to see on JVB's really good reply #25 on the other thread it may not just be the USGA and their "gross score" reliant handicap posting system that is responsible for a real "single round gross score" mentality on the part of so many American golfers. It really isn't that appropriate, in my opinion, to try to blame everything on the USGA!  ;)

If the American golfer really does have a fixation on a single round score I don't know that there is that much that the USGA could to about it anyway or whether they should even try.


TEP,

I have looked at the reply from JVB as you suggested and he makes some good points and maybe puts more weight to my point of view.

JVB 'Less than 20% of all golfers have handicaps.  Of those, about 20% never or rarely post a score (0-5 posted scores per year.)'

If this is the case then how is it that the SRS (Single Round Score ;D) came about in matchplay. Through the pressure of the masses? Hardly, if so few actually have a handicap.


JohnV

Re: Are the USGA losing the plot
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2008, 10:31:48 AM »
Jon,

The British system says that you have to play in the club's official medal events on a regular basis to establish a handicap.  The USGA says that if you play a round of golf you should post the score.

But, the USGA Handicap System DOES NOT REQUIRE THAT YOU FINISH EVERY HOLE!  American golfers want to do that, but the USGA doesn't require it.

Assuming you are not playing in a stroke play tournament where all holes must be completed you can pick up when:

1) You have reached your maximum score under ESC.  I have frequently seen players say, "That is all I can take" and pick up.
2) You can stop playing any hole and record the score you most likely would have made.  This would usually happen in a match play situation.  If my opponent makes a 3 and I've got a 2 foot putt for a 4, I can pick up and record a 4.  If I had a 25 foot putt, I can pick up and record a 5.
3) You are playing Stableford (or "points"), you can pickup when you can't make any points (or lose anymore if playing some kind of modified points system).  Again, record the score you most likely would have made.
4) You can quit playing after playing 13 or more holes and record an 18 hole score by recording par + any handicap strokes for the remaining holes.

To me, the main reason the USGA wants all rounds posted is that the average player doesn't play enough tournament style rounds to establish a handicap that reflects true potential.  I guess it could be said that the USGA prefers quantity over quality.

The USGA wants as many players to have a handicap as possible, while the British only want the player who plays in club tournaments to have a handicap.

Another good reason (at least in my opinion) for getting everyone possible to have a handicap is that it supports the regional golf associations like the NCGA where I work.  People pay us good money to maintain their handicap for them.  I suppose the British system is good for the club as it forces members to play in club events, while the USGA system doesn't.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are the USGA losing the plot
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2008, 10:51:23 AM »
JVB,

maybe this is a british mentallity but isn't your handicap suposed to reflect your average playing standard? If I understand the US system it does not in any way lead to this goal. I am I admit very ignorant of the US handicapping system.

I find your explanation quite shocking and it seems to me that it allows who wish to abuse it in effect to cheat legally. Especially point 2 is quite unbelievable 'You can stop playing any hole and record the score you most likely would have made'. Well gee from inside 200 hundred yards of the green I usually manage to get down in 3 shots so I might as well only hit 18 tee shots :-\

Is this really what the game is all about. HAVE YOU REALLY BECOME SO LOST OVER THERE that you retreat into a fantasy world of 'well that is what I usually shoot' ? For Goodness sake man get out before its to late ;D

I agree with your wanting all golfer to support local bodies

John Burzynski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are the USGA losing the plot
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2008, 11:07:34 AM »
While I maintain a handicap here in the US, it does seem to me that the need to post ANY round played is kind of ridiculous. 

Solo unverified round, post it.  Informal round with your buddies while you are on course and have had 10 beers by the 15th hole, post it.    Etc.   No wonder we seem to have so many problems with vanity handicaps or sandbaggers; unless you play in a certified tournament where your score is verfied, you could in effect post any score you damn well please (or think you could have scored), make up a score, post only your best or worst scores, on and on. 

There really is no double check or verification that legitimizes a USGA handicap, other than solely depending on a golfers' honesty in posting their true scores, in posting all of their scores good and bad, etc..  I realize that this is ultimately a game of honesty, but when money may be involved in betting on a match or winning a prize in a local tournament, I go with that old Reagan line 'trust but verify'

TEPaul

Re: Are the USGA losing the plot
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2008, 11:20:53 AM »
"If this is the case then how is it that the SRS (Single Round Score ) came about in matchplay. Through the pressure of the masses? Hardly, if so few actually have a handicap."

Jon:

No, the SRS came about in match play and stroke play and any form of play FOR HANDICAPPING PURPOSES simply because it is the easiest way to input for handicap calculation in either form of play. The fact is SRS is fine for stroke play handicap calculation because a SRS IS the stroke play format but for Match play the format is hole by hole and that is why hole by hole posting is the best for match play.  The additional fact is hole by hole posting for handicap calculation works fine in stroke play too because all the computer needs to do is total up the hole by hole scores. That's not necessary in match play.

JVB's point is the handicap posting procedure of SRS may not have much to do with the American fixation on wanting to know their SRS no matter what kind of golf they are playing. I think he's right about that, so what is the USGA supposed to do about it----eg send a circular out to all American golfers telling them to give up their inherent fixation on a SRS?  ;)


Adam Clayman

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Re: Are the USGA losing the plot
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2008, 12:05:00 PM »


I find your explanation quite shocking and it seems to me that it allows who wish to abuse it in effect to cheat legally. Cheating is a strong word. It is true that those inclined to manipulate their scores for handicapping purposes, either with the pencil, or, by missing the three footers on the last few holes in rounds where it does not matter, is unethical. There can be enough doubt that calling someone a cheater without proof is poor form. Either way, it reveals the character of the person and that is a big part of golf. With great associations amd systems like those of the NCGA, repeat offenders are easily spotted based on past performances. There just is no one with the balls to actually call someone a cheater when there is enough doubt. Nor should there be. Only the blatant are dinged.  Especially point 2 is quite unbelievable 'You can stop playing any hole and record the score you most likely would have made'. Well gee from inside 200 hundred yards of the green I usually manage to get down in 3 shots so I might as well only hit 18 tee shots :-\

Is this really what the game is all about. HAVE YOU REALLY BECOME SO LOST OVER THERE that you retreat into a fantasy world of 'well that is what I usually shoot' ? For Goodness sake man get out before its to late ;D
You are mischaracterizing the situations where what JVB explained is applicable. i.e. When playing match play and the opponent is given his kick in 3, while the player who conceded lays more, is when this stipulation of what one would likely have scored is utilized. Not the extension you've taken it to.

John V.- Please feel free to have someone contact me for ideas on catching the subtle repeat offenders in your association events.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are the USGA losing the plot
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2008, 12:36:35 PM »
"If this is the case then how is it that the SRS (Single Round Score ) came about in matchplay. Through the pressure of the masses? Hardly, if so few actually have a handicap."

Jon:

No, the SRS came about in match play and stroke play and any form of play FOR HANDICAPPING PURPOSES simply because it is the easiest way to input for handicap calculation in either form of play. The fact is SRS is fine for stroke play handicap calculation because a SRS IS the stroke play format but for Match play the format is hole by hole and that is why hole by hole posting is the best for match play.  The additional fact is hole by hole posting for handicap calculation works fine in stroke play too because all the computer needs to do is total up the hole by hole scores. That's not necessary in match play.

JVB's point is the handicap posting procedure of SRS may not have much to do with the American fixation on wanting to know their SRS no matter what kind of golf they are playing. I think he's right about that, so what is the USGA supposed to do about it----eg send a circular out to all American golfers telling them to give up their inherent fixation on a SRS?  ;)



TEP,

if I understand your reply properly then you are taking my statement out of context. I can see an argument for SRS in strokeplay though strokeplay rules should abide. In matchplay I don't see how it can be applied. The two forms of golf require such different approaches and tatics that a player may decide he has to go for the green if his opponent is tight to the pin on one occasion in matchplay but not if his opponet has hit OOB on another occasion.  This is something that doesn't happen as much in strokeplay (I would throw in some quip about Brits maybe appreciating the difference between stroke and matchplay better than Americans but after the other week maybe not ;D). So the result in matchplay cannot possible reflect the players result in strokeplay.

I disagree with your statement that hole by hole posting for handicap is fine as the handicap is based on the entire round and not 18 individual holes. If JVB post says the handicap posting procedure of SRS may not have much to do with the American fixation on wanting to know their SRS no matter what kind of golf they are playing then why do you come to the conclusion, albeit in jest, to send a circular out to all American golfers telling them to give up their inherent fixation on a SRS? ???

Adam,

wether you call it cheating or MANIPULATING (are you a defence lawyer? ;D) it is all the same. I agree with most of the rest of what you wrote and find it a shame that more people are not willing to stand up and say what they think instead of gossiping in corners.

As to my comments on point 2 I was only taking what was written and MANIPULATING it  ;) to its logical, extreme conclusion.

But looking on it in a positive light this crazy handicapping rule might solve some of golfs biggest problems. You would only need enough land to acommodate 18 tee shots, there after the player may pick up his ball and record what ever score he thinks he would have likely taken. Secondly, even the slowest players would be playing 18 in under 3 hour.

To the second question in my original post it would have a negitive effect on GCA as there would be no need for any green complexes :'( but also less cart paths :)
« Last Edit: October 01, 2008, 02:08:16 AM by Jon Wiggett »

Jason Topp

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Re: Are the USGA losing the plot
« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2008, 12:51:50 PM »
To me, it should be clear to anyone with even the slightest inclination about golf that matchplay requires such a totally different approach to the playing of the course that it makes any possible strokeplay result irrelevant. What do others think about this?

Jon:

I actually disagree with this statement.  I'm trying to make the best score I can on a given hole regardless of whether I am playing match play or stroke play.  The instances where I might play a hole differently because I am in a match are pretty rare.  Thus, while I agree that there may be differences, I doubt over the course of 20 rounds they make enough of a difference to matter much.

The biggest differences between stroke and match play to my mind are blow up holes (which are irrelevant to handicaps because of the maximum adjustment imposed by the usga) and the impact of not holing out all putts.  People playing matches probably concede putts more often than they should statistically.  Furthermore, people that pick up rather than hole out probably underestimate their score.  In reality a 6 footer is a 50/50 proposition for a tour pro.  I would guess 4 feet might be the break even point for most.  It would not shock me if those factors impact scores by a stroke or two to the disadvantage of the match play player. 

To my mind, if someone who plays match play all of the time has a handicap that is too low, that is their choice and will be reflected in the results of wagers and results of net competitions. 

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are the USGA losing the plot
« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2008, 02:22:20 PM »
To me, it should be clear to anyone with even the slightest inclination about golf that matchplay requires such a totally different approach to the playing of the course that it makes any possible strokeplay result irrelevant. What do others think about this?

Jon:

I actually disagree with this statement.  I'm trying to make the best score I can on a given hole regardless of whether I am playing match play or stroke play. 

Jason,

I can not agree with you in either stroke or matchplay. On the 17th at TOC for instance I have played birdie on several occasions but it has been the result of a fluke shot each time and not design. In strokeplay I would nearly always lay up short and right or left depending on the pin position but would probably never play for the top level unless I had to. In matchplay if my opponent lay 3 feet from the pin in 2 then I would have to go for it.

In general in strokeplay, I usually play for par although birdie is always on as a best score, in matchplay I play for the score that will win or atleast halve the hole

Bob_Huntley

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Re: Are the USGA losing the plot
« Reply #15 on: September 30, 2008, 03:00:07 PM »
I may have missed this, but has anyone mentioned the fact that many golfers feel that they have paid their money and want a full round of golf, including taking four putts?

Having played under both R&A and US attitudes toward handicapping, I do feel that posting a score after every round has added to the time to get through a round. The sinking of a putt for a six after one's partner wins or halves the hole with a four, is pernicious act and should be 'utterly cryit doon.'

Bob

Jon Wiggett

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Re: Are the USGA losing the plot
« Reply #16 on: September 30, 2008, 04:29:34 PM »
Bob,

to be honest I am not sure how relevant handicap is to most golfers most of the time. The great majority, as far as I am aware, play with the same few friends for a beer or what ever and if one of the players handicaps does not reflect his play in the group then it will be adjusted by the group either up or down.

John Kavanaugh

Re: Are the USGA losing the plot
« Reply #17 on: September 30, 2008, 05:48:29 PM »
I may have missed this, but has anyone mentioned the fact that many golfers feel that they have paid their money and want a full round of golf, including taking four putts?

Having played under both R&A and US attitudes toward handicapping, I do feel that posting a score after every round has added to the time to get through a round. The sinking of a putt for a six after one's partner wins or halves the hole with a four, is pernicious act and should be 'utterly cryit doon.'

Bob

This is exactly why I do not feel a responsibility to post a score while playing Wolf.  The duty of playing quickly for my playing partners and other golfers on the course outweighs the moral conundrum of posting a score for every round played.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are the USGA losing the plot
« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2008, 03:50:26 AM »
To me, it should be clear to anyone with even the slightest inclination about golf that matchplay requires such a totally different approach to the playing of the course that it makes any possible strokeplay result irrelevant. What do others think about this?

Jon:

I actually disagree with this statement.  I'm trying to make the best score I can on a given hole regardless of whether I am playing match play or stroke play.  The instances where I might play a hole differently because I am in a match are pretty rare.  Thus, while I agree that there may be differences, I doubt over the course of 20 rounds they make enough of a difference to matter much.

The biggest differences between stroke and match play to my mind are blow up holes (which are irrelevant to handicaps because of the maximum adjustment imposed by the usga) and the impact of not holing out all putts.  People playing matches probably concede putts more often than they should statistically.  Furthermore, people that pick up rather than hole out probably underestimate their score.  In reality a 6 footer is a 50/50 proposition for a tour pro.  I would guess 4 feet might be the break even point for most.  It would not shock me if those factors impact scores by a stroke or two to the disadvantage of the match play player. 

To my mind, if someone who plays match play all of the time has a handicap that is too low, that is their choice and will be reflected in the results of wagers and results of net competitions. 

Jason

You say you disagree with the proposition then you go on to give a few examples which prove the proposition to be accurate.  However, I do know what you are saying in terms of trying to get the best score possible, but that isn't the goal in matchplay.  The goal is to beat the other player - the score is irrelevant.  Often times guys will not take on a risk in matchplay if they don't think it is necessary even if they can't achieve the best score possible by not doing so.  I spose this is what people mean when they suggest there are good matchplay courses - courses where the heroic play can result in victory or disaster.  In any case, at my level and for the vast majority of golfers, it is not unusual for a golfer to have the opportunity to just play it cool for a bogey after witnessing his opponent screw something up.  Or, as Jon states, sometimes there is no point in playing safe when a great shot is required just for a half - though to be fair, I think golfers over-estimate this.  Sometimes it is better to still play safe and hope the opponent screws up his 3 footer.  These things have to be judged in a case by case scenario.

Now for the pros, I think it is a bit different because these guys can pull off great shots time and again.  Perhaps it is best for them to stick to their game and only alter it when their hand is forced. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

TEPaul

Re: Are the USGA losing the plot
« Reply #19 on: October 06, 2008, 12:26:17 AM »
"TEP,

I have looked at the reply from JVB as you suggested and he makes some good points and maybe puts more weight to my point of view.

JVB 'Less than 20% of all golfers have handicaps.  Of those, about 20% never or rarely post a score (0-5 posted scores per year.)'

If this is the case then how is it that the SRS (Single Round Score ) came about in matchplay. Through the pressure of the masses? Hardly, if so few actually have a handicap."



Jon:

It came about in one of two ways:

1. Americans just have a SRS mentality despite only 20% having handicaps.
2. It is a result of the American handicap procedure of inputting a SRS for all handicap posting.


What other way do you think Americans would have a fixation of SRSing?  ;)

The differences in the playing Rules of Golf between stroke play and match play have nothing much to do with this, in my opinion.

I believe a SRS mentality could be largely eliminated if the entire world just went to hole by hole posting for handicap purposes and no SRS handicap posting was required by golfers.