[John Shimp]

What likely happens to high end private clubs and their golf courses given where the economy and wall street are today and where things appear headed?  Do clubs tend to cut maintenance expenses in downturns?  They most likely take a much harder look at course capital projects that would require an assessment or significant dues changes?  Does anyone have anecdotes of the effects on high-end  courses from other downturns (eg early 80's)?   Was it more a loss of membership or a real hit to the health of the golf course and the architecture itself?

[Sam Maryland]

I'd be surprised if most "established" clubs would change the maintenance sched much -- but "projects" could certainly be delayed, scrapped, or scaled back.

but I did hear an interesting anecdote about Sea Island recently.  all maintenance was being done at night or very early in the a.m. and always out of sight of the golfers, they are scrapping that policy. 

a buddy of mine played Pound Ridge (near NYC) the other day, $235 a pop.  the starter said "we are disappointed in the amount of play so next year they are going to take it private"...

...yeah, right.

SM

[J_ Crisham]

Chicago has seen the closing of a nice private club, Ravisloe. This course was designed in 1901. As to whether or not this is due to the economy is debatable. It has long been struggling. My guess is that the other local private clubs will pick up some of the members. Olympia Fields, Flossmoor, and Beverly would be logical choices. Sad to see but probably more to come.                               Jack

[BCrosby]

The article by Chris Millard in Golf Digest on this topic is excellent.

Bob

[Carl Nichols]

My club is in the middle of completing a three-part project:  building a new maintenance barn; a smallish expansion of the clubhouse to have a larger/better fitness area and to create additional outdoor/patio dining; and complete renovation of the tennis house and creation of indoor courts.  The first two are basically done, and I haven't heard anyone suggest that the third (which hasn't started) will be canceled or delayed because of recent events.  I suspect that the financing has been lined up for some time, so they haven't had to worry about that recently.

[Bob_Huntley]

The bane of courses in California will be the cost of water. We may well get our firm, fast and......brown.

Bob

[Jeff_Stettner]

Bob,
It's already happening. At Sequoyah CC the rough is brown and the fairways are riding the edge. It's a lot of fun to play.

[John Kavanaugh]

Chicago has seen the closing of a nice private club, Ravisloe. This course was designed in 1901. As to whether or not this is due to the economy is debatable. It has long been struggling. My guess is that the other local private clubs will pick up some of the members. Olympia Fields, Flossmoor, and Beverly would be logical choices. Sad to see but probably more to come.                               Jack

I was shocked to read the above and to have not remembered a mention of this on the board.  The Google says in an article dated today...not so fast.  We are talking Ross here with life size topiary.

http://www.ravisloecountryclub.com/golf/proto/ravisloecountryclub/ - Wait for the topiary to scroll the top of the page.

http://www.southtownstar.com/neighborhoodstar/homewood-flossmoor/1192425,093008ravisloefolo.article - Article dated Sept 30, 2008

[mike_beene]

John,my club just blamed the economy for putting off a plan to redo locker rooms and card rooms.It was going to be $7500 assessment.There is no need to do the project at all.We are not the most exclusive club in town.There are 5 or 6 more expensive but we have been full for years.The economy would affect very few of our members,but if you lose a few the finances can change quickly.Our membership would not tolerate things like Monday tournaments.

[Dan Herrmann]

I'd guess that anything that would require credit would be a no-go at this time.  Just look at the LIBOR rates and you'll see that the credit markets are almost frozen.

[John Kavanaugh]

John,my club just blamed the economy for putting off a plan to redo locker rooms and card rooms.It was going to be $7500 assessment.There is no need to do the project at all.We are not the most exclusive club in town.There are 5 or 6 more expensive but we have been full for years.The economy would affect very few of our members,but if you lose a few the finances can change quickly.Our membership would not tolerate things like Monday tournaments.

The real pain is not so much in the revenue lost by losing old members as the lesser personalities that accompany the new.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Some established clubs are seeing older members transfer from full golf status to a social membership thus creating a dues shortfall.

[Dan Herrmann]

John - I just gotta ask..  Am I correct in reading your comment to mean that new members have "lesser personalities" than the folks they've replaced?

[John Kavanaugh]

John - I just gotta ask..  Am I correct in reading your comment to mean that new members have "lesser personalities" than the folks they've replaced?

As an example we all know...Do you really believe a member like Bob Huntley can be replaced by some young whipper snapper bottom feeding on a zero initiation fee offer?

[Mark Chaplin]

JK - I've yet to meet Bob and certainly hope to do so one day, however I'm sure he as I would admit to being that young whipper snapper in the past. New members are the life blood of clubs, it's then their character and the character of the club and it's members that mould people into the sages of the future.

Surely straight $$$ isn't the only sign of a good man?

[Mike McGuire]

Our leaving golf members are being replaced by men who play nine holes in the evening with their wives and go to soccer games on Saturday morning. Not saying anything about their character just a different breed. Its harder to find a fourth these days than 10 years ago.

[John Kavanaugh]

JK - I've yet to meet Bob and certainly hope to do so one day, however I'm sure he as I would admit to being that young whipper snapper in the past. New members are the life blood of clubs, it's then their character and the character of the club and it's members that mould people into the sages of the future.

Surely straight $$$ isn't the only sign of a good man?

New members are not the life blood of established clubs and to think they are can lead to a destruction of the great golf culture of our past.  Do you honestly believe that when Pine Valley lets in a new member he becomes the life blood of that club?  I have a feeling that at any financially secure club a new member who thinks they are some standard to which be weighed will soon be ostracized or removed.  A great club is like a great family and is best run by the fathers rather than the children.  The drastic last step of giving away memberships to pump up cash flow reminds me of a great old family taking on borders to meet the mortgage.  The disruption of the family unit has nothing to do with the wealth of the border.

[Brad Fleischer]

I am reading this with great interest as I am finally considering joining a club. So with that said Mark I hope your right and $$$$ is not the only sign of a good man. I like to think I am a good man, one that has about $$ rather than $$$$. One of the perils I find myself facing is joining a club that is not welcoming nor a "golf" club. I am bottom feeding and I am the sort of young whipper snapper JK is speaking about. I mean why shouldn't I be ? The economy is in chaos . Clubs can't stay afloat in some parts of the country. Unfortunatly I live in NY and don't have the 500,000 fee to join the elite clubs around me nor do I make a million a year. So yes JK I am that guy . Trust me by no means would I want to replace anybody. Would I like to join a place were golf was the focus, had a good bunch of guys, learn a few things along the way and perhaps one day have the same thing said about me as Mr Huntley ? "yes"  Cheeers to all the bottom feeders  

[John Kavanaugh]

Brad,

I have recently bottom fed myself at a couple of private clubs with zero initiation fee programs.  I am not saying that we are poor members or not good for the club, I am saying and have experienced the fact that it may take a few years to fill the shoes of those we replace.

A couple of words of advice:

Do not mention to any established member the great deal you negotiated.
Do not bring a sandbagger friend to your first member/guest.
Do not be afraid to give up an extra stroke in your initial foray into the money games.
Do not make any suggestions on how to improve the club.
Be the fastest player in your group.
Dress conservatively.
Remove funny headcovers or a bag with your name.
Never look for a lost ball over 30 seconds.
Always putt out without marking if possible.
Take lessons as soon as possible to help the pro out during what has been slow times as he will also learn your game and introduce you to people that fit your expectations from the club. 

The sad fact of the matter is that after a couple of rounds your reputation will be established and impossible to reverse. 

[Jeff Spittel]

John,

You strike me as a friendly guy. Have you considered chairing your club's social committee?

[John Kavanaugh]

John,

You strike me as a friendly guy. Have you considered chairing your club's social committee?

The only thing i am worse at than one on one relationships is getting along with a group of people.  Not a committee kind of guy.

[Carl Nichols]

Brad,

I have recently bottom fed myself at a couple of private clubs with zero initiation fee programs.  I am not saying that we are poor members or not good for the club, I am saying and have experienced the fact that it may take a few years to fill the shoes of those we replace.

A couple of words of advice:

Do not mention to any established member the great deal you negotiated.
Do not bring a sandbagger friend to your first member/guest.
Do not be afraid to give up an extra stroke in your initial foray into the money games.
Do not make any suggestions on how to improve the club.
Be the fastest player in your group.
Dress conservatively.
Remove funny headcovers or a bag with your name.
Never look for a lost ball over 30 seconds.
Always putt out without marking if possible.
Take lessons as soon as possible to help the pro out during what has been slow times as he will also learn your game and introduce you to people that fit your expectations from the club. 

The sad fact of the matter is that after a couple of rounds your reputation will be established and impossible to reverse. 

This is all good advice.  I'd also suggest:
Buy a few things from the pro shop. 
Hang out and have lunch/drinks after your first few rounds.
Accept whatever standard bets/games are played, at least for a few rounds.
Don't bring slow guests.

[Brad Fleischer]

All good advice and will make a mental note off all said.

Jk point taken. I agree it's hard to fill peoples shoes sometimes,more so when they are big shoes to fill.

[David_Tepper]

A bit off-topic (my apologies), but an interesting article on how the economic slump is impacting golf-related real estate in St. Andrews.

http://www.golfdigest.com/golfworld/columnists/2008/10/gw20081003cullity

[PThomas]

sad news about Ravisloe ...I hadn't heard til now as i've been out of town

for those not familiar, within 15 minutes of each other are 5 private clubs:  Olympia Fields, Ravisloe, Calumet CC (Ross), Idlewild and Flossmoor....i've heard rumors about some of them being in trouble for awhile

I was a member at Ravisloe in 2006-7...i got in for a very low fee, but after two years my monthly dues went up $200/month or $2400 a year...i understand that the club had to do that in order to try and make it financially sensible for them to have me as a member, but that just made it too expensive..i have three girls, one of whom is two years away from starting college

and my whole family enjoyed the club....the course had been restored by David Esler about 5 years aog..while only about 6300 yards long, it presented a decent challenge thru a pretty good set of green complexes...my kids loved the pool and the food there was quite good  a nice range and short game practice area

btw Flossmoor has restored 12 of its 18 holes and is supposed to finish the job this fall....I don't know how much that is costing them

I miss Ravisloe and wish i was still there...i wish places like that could work for less than what they have to charge, but that's just economics i guess

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