[Bart Bradley]

Reading Patrick Mucci's thread, I couldn't help but think of my recent golfing experiences and of the information presented on this site.  I think the evidence weighs strongly that no such demise exists.

My evidence:  Recent trips to Ballyneal, Sand Hills, Diamond Creek.  All of these courses were built in the last 20 years.  They will stand as testament to the fact that many of today's courses are truly special, have character and are full of contour.  Please see the picture below:




Please see Matt Ward's recent list of sub$100 modern golf.  You will find many courses full of quirk, contour and character.

Please see the recent thread on Jeff Brauer's course Quarry at Giant's Ridge.

Please see the recent threads/photos of JM Kidd's work at Tetherow, Macrahanish, etc.

Given all this evidence, why then are we saying that character, quirk and contour are dead?  I beg to differ.

Discuss.

Bart

[Jason Topp]

On one hand, I agree.  I would guess the last twelve years produced more high quality interesting courses than the prior 65 years.

On the other hand, I would argue that many changes to old courses have eliminated interesting pieces of character, quirk and contour - particularly due to green speeds.  I already see myself fighting efforts to reduce slopes on my course's greens that are severe, but playable as long as the stimp is below 10.  The staff has kept the greens at an appropriate speed all year but many, many members grumbled and a few have dropped their memberships, purportedly in part due to green speeds.

Many restorations, however, have not elimated quirk and contour.  Charlotte Country Club's greens have all of the quirk and contour one could want.

[Ed Oden]

Bart, I would tend to agree.  It seems to me that there has been a renaissance of quirk and character in recent designs.  Admittedly, it is still the exception and not the rule, but it is out there and not too hard to find.  Plus, how commonplace should quirk really be? Wouldn't too much quirk actually devalue the concept?  I mean, part of the charm of quirk is that it breaks the rules.  In other words, if quirk were the norm it wouldn't be quirky any more.

Ed

[Kalen Braley]

Bart,

I understand what your saying, and i don't know if I agree with the premise either....but can you really trying to claim that Ballyneal and Sand Hills is even remotely representative of the vast majority of courses built in the last 20 years?

[Bart Bradley]

Bart,

I understand what your saying, and i don't know if I agree with the premise either....but can you really trying to claim that Ballyneal and Sand Hills is even remotely representative of the vast majority of courses built in the last 20 years?

Kalen:

No, these are exceptional.  But the courses from years ago that we talk about are generally the exceptional courses of their day.  Look at the thread on Tilly...there are a several courses mentioned as mediocre or worse.  But to claim that there is death of character, quirk and contour is folly.  Besides the ones I mentioned,  see Matt Ward's thread.   What about Pacific Dunes?  How about the recent photos of Tetherow on the site...is there no contour on that course?  How about Paul Cowley's work in Cabo?  Does Pete Dye's work have no character or quirk?  Where the hell are you guys going to golf that is so bad?  I just don't get it!

Bart

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bart,

I think you have to differentiate between destination golf courses and local membership golf courses, owned by the members.

I don't know of many membership courses, owned by members, that have an abundance or even a fair amount of quirk.

Then, you have to look at courses that have existed for a long while and see if they've had quirk added, obliterated or preserved.

I'd say none to the first, a great number to the second, and a few to the third.

Ballyneal and Sand Hills aren't your typical local golf courses.

[Bart Bradley]

Bart,

I think you have to differentiate between destination golf courses and local membership golf courses, owned by the members.

I don't know of many membership courses, owned by members, that have an abundance or even a fair amount of quirk.

Then, you have to look at courses that have existed for a long while and see if they've had quirk added, obliterated or preserved.

I'd say none to the first, a great number to the second, and a few to the third.

Ballyneal and Sand Hills aren't your typical local golf courses.

Pat:

I appreciate your kind and thoughtful response.

How about Austin Golf Club?  I played there 3 years ago.  Lots of contour and character and some quirk.  My own club Grandfather Golf and CC has severely contoured greens, is member owned, and cherishes and protects those greens.  Is it easy to add quirk?  I can't think of many courses where quirk has been added.  Can you?  That might be a great thread on its own...I'll start it.  Please feel free to educate me on where my knowledge falls short.

Bart

[Kalen Braley]

Bart,

I wasn't trying to attack you, just trying to figure out where you are coming from.  Yes I agree there are more courses to add to the list of exceptional that have been built in the last 20 years.

But the vast majority other than the aforementioned few notables range anywhere from boring Doak 1s and 2s to at least interesting 4s and 5s.  However they are still nowhere in the league of SH, BN, PD, BT, etc which are 9s and 10s.

So in the meantime I seek out the better than average ones, and I play them, and they are interesting.  But such is my reality that living in the SLC area that if I want anything exceptional I have to travel elsewhere to find it.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bart,

I think you have to differentiate between destination golf courses and local membership golf courses, owned by the members.

I don't know of many membership courses, owned by members, that have an abundance or even a fair amount of quirk.

Then, you have to look at courses that have existed for a long while and see if they've had quirk added, obliterated or preserved.

I'd say none to the first, a great number to the second, and a few to the third.

Ballyneal and Sand Hills aren't your typical local golf courses.

Pat:

I appreciate your kind and thoughtful response.

How about Austin Golf Club?  I played there 3 years ago.  Lots of contour and character and some quirk.


I haven't played Austin Golf Club, so I can't comment.
Any course designed by Pete Dye, perhaps especially 25 years ago would probably have some quirk.

My own club Grandfather Golf and CC has severely contoured greens, is member owned, and cherishes and protects those greens. 

I haven't played Grandfather G&C so I can't comment, but, GG&C was built 40 years ago when green speeds barely got to 8.

Is it easy to add quirk? 
I can't think of many courses where quirk has been added. 
Can you? 

Not off the top of my head, but, I'm sure there are a few examples.
I think it would be a rare event.

That might be a great thread on its own...I'll start it.  Please feel free to educate me on where my knowledge falls short.

I'll try my best.

[Bart Bradley]

Pat,

Austin Golf Club is Crenshaw. 

But I agree that Pete Dye has been building quirk for quite some time.

Grandfather is 40 years old but it is an example of a member owned club where the green contours are not being changed to reduce contour and slope.  We are committed to maintaining our greens at a speed comensurate with the substantial contours.  You'll have to come check it out.

Bart

[David_Madison]

Two architectural elements providing quirk and character are blind shots, and strong earth movement in the approach areas short of and around the greens that can be used creatively and advantageously. Both are far more abundant in older courses than those built in recent times. It's even rare to see holes designed now that are partially blind depending if you can hit your tee shot to a certain section of the fairway. Tobacco Road stands out as a non-country club affordable course with these features. But for every Tobacco Road built since 1990, there's probably 50 in that category with a complete lack of blindness or approach contour.

Tour players speaking highly of courses "where it's all out in front of you" have conditioned regular golfers to believe that anything hidden or subtle violates competitive fairness and is therefore less desirable. Old courses can get away with it much in the same way that we make allowances for (and even think it's cute) when old people say things that anyone younger wouldn't dare say.

[Doug Siebert]

Patrick,

There's a 6 or 7 year old daily fee course about 20 minutes north of me called Saddleback Ridge which has more quirk than 99% of courses built in the last 10 years, and it costs $29 for 18 on the weekend!

Let me list some of its quirky features off the top of my head:

- only two bunkers on the entire course, only one of which really comes into play
- 6/6/6 layout, with one stretch of 6 straight holes where you do not play a par 4
- while most of the greens are relatively tame, there are some wild ones, including one on the longest par 5 that has a very large BLIND false front, multiple tiers, and is built into a hillside so its damn hard to read, plus a couple other greens where if you putt/chip off the front the ball may run 30-40 yards off the front (ala ANGC #9)
- a steeply downhill par 3 that plays with the prevailing wind and has a green that runs away from you

BTW, playing an approach to a front middle pin on that green with the blind false front has perhaps the highest Kirk factor of any shot I've ever played.  Once the ball lands it can sometimes take 20 seconds for it to reappear rolling back off the front of the green and down the hill, so you really gotta watch that shot long after the point where you'd normally have put away the club and walked a dozen steps down the fairway.  If you do catch that false front, the chip/putt/pitch (your choice) back up to the pin is no picnic either, I've seen people take 3 or 4 tries before getting it up there unless they decide to play safe.  Its actually not an unfair green however, its 40-50 feet deep but probably 150 feet wide so there's plenty of room to play it away from the hole if you want to avoid getting into trouble!

There are people doing them, but probably most developers either don't like "unfair" stuff themselves or are worried about losing business from people who don't like it.  Its easier to play safe and avoid controversy.  I suppose its like if you had a course in an area that's 50% democrat and 50% republican, if you favor one party you could put up a sign in the clubhouse showing your support, but you'll piss off more people than you'll bring in so its probably not a good idea.

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