[Chip Gaskins]

What do you guys think of grass located 20 feet from a pin location that effectively plays like a water hazard?

I played Prairie Dunes last week and lost two balls on holes 10 and 18 respectively after my shots landed within 20 feet of the pin and were lost.   They landed in high, gnarly, patches of grass (gunch)  Not a big deal really, but I was just wondering what you guys thought of grass that effectively plays like a water hazard so close to the hole location.

I know there are lots of greens that have water around them (Sawgrass, Doral, Murifield Village, etc) that offer the same penalty for hitting a shot offline by 20 feet, however I have never had long grass be that penal so close to the green.  Again, not a big deal, golf doesn't have to be fair, its just I have never seen this before.

Hole 10

See patch of grass located to the right of pin



Hole #18
Right behind me is the patch of gunch the ball went into.



Also the gunch at Prairie Dunes is nothing short of amazing

[Mike_Young]

Chip
I think it exist in a few places....such as CD etc.....BUYT more importantly...I see someone walking around in there....do you know what a rattlesnake is?      They really like these areas because they are watered so much that the small rodents have more cover and food and the rattlers have easy prey......

[Jeff_Brauer]

I saw a rattler at PD once, and damn near got bit at Sand Hills.  So, I agree with Mike.  The tick problem in Kansas is not to be igored either.

The first photo looks kind of funny, with a nearly square box of the stuff in otherwise smooth turf. 

I would never take it away at PD and other places like that, but I doubt I would design it in, either.  To start with, depending on wind and climate, the sprinklers cover pretty well for at least 30-40' and maybe a bit more.  As Mike says, when you water native type grasses they usually get too thick to be playable.  So, for general speed of play, proportional punishment, good watering, etc. I think they should generally be further back from the green than that.

[RSLivingston_III]

The courses in Scotland that have "Marram"(sic) grass surrounding there greens is as bad, or worse.

[Tom_Doak]

Mike:

There aren't many places at Crystal Downs where you might lose the ball twenty feet off a green ... at least, not if you are as cheap as me. 

Chip:

I think most of what you are describing there is an irrigation problem.  It's okay to have long grass that close to the green, but not if it's getting a lot of water.  Then again, there's plenty of yucca to be found in and around the greenside bunkers at Prairie Dunes, and THAT is not a watering issue.  I guess the moral is to be careful where you hit it!

[Mike_Young]

Mike:

There aren't many places at Crystal Downs where you might lose the ball twenty feet off a green ... at least, not if you are as cheap as me. 

Chip:

I think most of what you are describing there is an irrigation problem.  It's okay to have long grass that close to the green, but not if it's getting a lot of water.  Then again, there's plenty of yucca to be found in and around the greenside bunkers at Prairie Dunes, and THAT is not a watering issue.  I guess the moral is to be careful where you hit it!

TD,
As I think about more you are right but the hole for some reason reminded me of 9 green complex coming up the hill at CD.  So I said such......

[Jeff_Brauer]

This should probably be a separate topic, but the question of how long to search came up yesterday, as I played yesterday with a man of means (enough to buy and remodel a golf course - this was the grand re-opening) and I had a plane to catch home!

With a rain delay, my time was tight.  We were the first group off naturally, so I was doing quite well time wise until he started looking for golf balls that he hit in the trees!  When you are trying to squeeze a round in, that 5 minute search (in a casual round) sure seems like an eternity!

I have always been a "if it flies there on its own volition (I had nothing to do with it, I'm sure) then it deserves to stay lost" kind of guy.  I admit, for a while, when I felt I had to play the Pro V at $4 per copy, I extended my searches a little.  But with the second tier of balls at $2.50 each and (for me) the same performance, I leave 'em be more of the time.

For the record, I lost one yesterday, on a narrow fw dogleg right where I leaked it into the woods.  Some days are worse than others, though.

[Michael Powers]

A renovation was done at my club in 06/07 by Craig Schreiner.  He redesiged/rebuilt all 18 greens and bunkers.  On 2 holes grass hollows with sodded fescue were added.  The Super tells me he has no machine that can cut it without killing it.  When the greens are watered, the sprinkler system hits these areas, making the grass even longer.  Last August we held a state four-ball championship.  I watched 3 guys in one group hit into one of these.  One guy lost his ball, one guy left it in there, and one guy hacked it out across the green.  These areas would not be a problem if they were not continuously watered in my opinion.  This stuff is like 15 inches now and I would argue that they are more penal than  a water hazard.  At least you're not taking a stroke and distance penalty with a lateral or water hazard.

[Michael Powers]

This should probably be a separate topic, but the question of how long to search came up yesterday, as I played yesterday with a man of means (enough to buy and remodel a golf course - this was the grand re-opening) and I had a plane to catch home!

With a rain delay, my time was tight.  We were the first group off naturally, so I was doing quite well time wise until he started looking for golf balls that he hit in the trees!  When you are trying to squeeze a round in, that 5 minute search (in a casual round) sure seems like an eternity!

I have always been a "if it flies there on its own volition (I had nothing to do with it, I'm sure) then it deserves to stay lost" kind of guy.  I admit, for a while, when I felt I had to play the Pro V at $4 per copy, I extended my searches a little.  But with the second tier of balls at $2.50 each and (for me) the same performance, I leave 'em be more of the time.

For the record, I lost one yesterday, on a narrow fw dogleg right where I leaked it into the woods.  Some days are worse than others, though.

Havn't you heard of the "NO HUNT RULE"? 

[Chip Gaskins]

Mike & Jeff - No way I was going in there.  I hate snakes.  I lost more balls at Prairie Dunes than any course I have played in years.  I played the same ball all day the next day at Sand Hills and the following day at Ballyneal.  However, I bet I lost 6-7 balls at Prairie Dunes, no way I was going in there looking.

Michael - You are correct, this type of hazard is worse than a water hazard where you drop at the spot it went in, this type of hazard plays like an Out of Bounds.

Ralph- Not many of the courses I have played in Scotland are this severe.  Gullen was the most severe I played in Scotland for rough, but they don't have snakes, so I found most of my off line shots there.

Tom- Do you think this type of greenside patchy rough was what the Maxwell's had in mind.  I bought the Maxwell / Prairie Dunes book, as I usually buy the club books versus my zillionth hat, and none of the old pictures show the rough like that.

Either way, Prairie Dunes had some of the best green complexes I have played, even though I was hitting my third shot into them versus my second.

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