Does Johnny Miller understand the golf swing?

[Jim_Kennedy]

Look down, can't see your left foot?, your stomach's sticking out and you probably swayed or thrust your lower body ahead  instead of posting/pivoting.

[Michael Powers]

The thing that strikes me about Miller's commentary is his "This is an easy putt", "That was an easy putt", comments.  All this from a guy who had the yips so bad that he would look at the butt of the club instead of the ball while employing his right hand claw grip.  You would think Miller would have a little more humility when players on both sides are faced with pressure putts.  I would argue that no meaningful putt at the Ryder Cup is "easy".

[Bill_McBride]

The thing that strikes me about Miller's commentary is his "This is an easy putt", "That was an easy putt", comments.  All this from a guy who had the yips so bad that he would look at the butt of the club instead of the ball while employing his right hand claw grip.  You would think Miller would have a little more humility when players on both sides are faced with pressure putts.  I would argue that no meaningful putt at the Ryder Cup is "easy".

Anybody who thinks they are not a good putter should watch the "Shell Wonderful World of Golf" match between Johnny and Nicklaus.  You will never again feel you are a terrible putter after watching Johnny's yips that day.  He made Hogan look like Crenshaw by comparison.  Embarrassing.  I think he hit 15 greens and had 45 putts.

[TX Golf]

I have always wanted to see this match...even more after reading these comments. Does anybody have any idea where it can be viewed. Is there a site on the internet?? Has the series ever been put on DVD? Let me know. Thanks.

Robert

[Jed Peters]

I have always wanted to see this match...even more after reading these comments. Does anybody have any idea where it can be viewed. Is there a site on the internet?? Has the series ever been put on DVD? Let me know. Thanks.

Robert

They show em pretty frequently on the golf channel--just set your tivo (or fake-vo, if you roll like that)

[Phil McDade]

He used to be considered a very knowledgable player.  The past few years of listening to his ego driven rants has changed my opinion.  Everything he sees in other swings is how he feels about his own swing.  I am sick of seeing underneath inside out flips being refered to as coming over the top.  Some of the greatest swingers of the golf club were very close to being brain dead as far as understanding what they were doing--Boo Weekly is a great case in point among current players.

More red-neck hate on the discussion board.

Robert -- what makes you think Weekley doesn't understand his swing? I'm not sure I've seen a more consistent player with his irons this week.

[Jim Tang]

I have to believe a guy who shot 63 at the US Open and won multiple times on the PGA Tour knows a lot about the golf swing.  I love Johnny as an announcer because he tells it like it is, which is so refreshing.  Today, golf announcers are way too careful not to offend the egos of tour players.  They dance around the subject if a guy chokes, hits a horrible shot or make terrible decisions down the stretch.  Johnny isn't afraid to make these observations, live, in front of millions of people, knowing very well that what he says will most certainly get back to the players.

I live in Chicago, where the press has bashed Rex Grossman repeatedly over the last three or four years.  They hammer the Cubs and Bulls and Sox when they are not playing well.  Can you imagine a tour player taking that amount of heat for their performance?  It just won't happen.

Yes, golf is not like other major pro sports, and most tour guys are pretty good guys.  But hey, if you choose a public job, one in which you are paid millions to do, you should be ready for some analyzing.

Even if I don't agree with what Johnny has to say, at least he is saying something thought provoking.

[Kalen Braley]

I have to believe a guy who shot 63 at the US Open and won multiple times on the PGA Tour knows a lot about the golf swing.  I love Johnny as an announcer because he tells it like it is, which is so refreshing.  Today, golf announcers are way too careful not to offend the egos of tour players.  They dance around the subject if a guy chokes, hits a horrible shot or make terrible decisions down the stretch.  Johnny isn't afraid to make these observations, live, in front of millions of people, knowing very well that what he says will most certainly get back to the players.

I live in Chicago, where the press has bashed Rex Grossman repeatedly over the last three or four years.  They hammer the Cubs and Bulls and Sox when they are not playing well.  Can you imagine a tour player taking that amount of heat for their performance?  It just won't happen.

Yes, golf is not like other major pro sports, and most tour guys are pretty good guys.  But hey, if you choose a public job, one in which you are paid millions to do, you should be ready for some analyzing.

Even if I don't agree with what Johnny has to say, at least he is saying something thought provoking.

Jim,

This is really the point.  We see when they make poor decisions. We see when they make a bad shot.  We see when they are choking like a dog.  What does he add to the table with these kind of comments? hy does Johnny feel like he needs to point out the obvious?

What you call "honest" broadcasting, I see as just pure negativity and don't know why he feels like he has to point out all thier weaknesses after just painfully watching them.

What we need, and what I'd pay money for is to have an announcer who comments and goes blow by blow on Johnnys analysis....now that would be some very revealing stuff.

[Bob_Huntley]

I do think that Miller's comments are somewhat arcane. The business of hiiting off the third groove vs the second is so much bullshit. We all know that he was a sensational performer in the seventies and not many golfers came close to his control of the the ball, but with his decline came an almost pontifical belief that he was the Oracle on the Mount. He knew it all, when a guy made a mistake or he choked.

His comment after the WWOG Match at Olympic with Nicklaus was the height of hubris, "I outplayed him from tee to green." He played like chit and couldn't admit it. There are things to like about him  but much to dislike..

Bob

[JSlonis]

I actually like Johnny Miller.

Back to sticking your stomach out...

Sully, you've heard of this before?  Please explain this one to me.  I've honestly never heard of it before...and I'd thought I'd heard everything by now.

The last time I was surprised by a swing concept or criticism that I'd never heard before, it was "pronating" in about 1986...

Shivas,

It is a fairly common mistake, but Miller could've explained it better.  It is more about your hips/pelvis shifting toward the ball on the downswing or at impact.  This causes you to lose your posture and your spacing for your arms and hands to get through the ball properly...as a result you stand up a bit at impact which leads to problems.

A lot of good players really concentrate on engaging their abdominal muscles during the swing which tightens up that area and keeps the pelvis in the same place you had it at address.

Unfortunately I know this stuff, because like Sully, it is one of my swing faults.

[TX Golf]

Not to take this thread in a different direction but does anybody know why Shell stopped filming the WWoG series. I love to watch the reruns on TGC but I don't think they even play them any more. Too bad as there were some CLASSIC matches. Let me know if you have any idea??

Robert

[Mike_Clayton]

Robert,

It would be a fair bet that players in the 60s were pretty happy to split a ten thousand dollar purse between them. Get Mickelson and Goosen to play and they are going to ask of two hundred and fifty thousand each.
Its a pity because they were great matches.

Having said that Hogan was paid $25,000 for the Snead match in Houston - probably more than the first prize at the US Open.
It is still one of the most watched golf tapes in history so I would say Shell did pretty well.

[TX Golf]

Mike,

It really is a shame. What if you were to get some of these players to compete on the Monday after a tournament. That would be fairly convenient. Yea you would have to pay them a fee but I still think it could be a profitable operation. Especially with the top players, although Tiger will always be a tough sell. I think the most important thing would be to make sure the matches take place on great golf courses. From what I have seen in the past, this was usually the case. Maybe after the AT&T matches could be played at courses like Cypress, MPCC, even Spyglass. I don't know how accommodating exclusive courses of this status would be but it would make great TV, as it showed us in the past. I would love to watch a Furyk vs. Harrington match at Oakmont. That stuff just sounds great to me. I think these are the levels of players that would participate as like I mentioned earlier I think Tiger and Phil would be a hard sell. If possible though, how cool would a rematch of Phil vs. Retief be and Shinney. I think I like this idea just because it would be a great way to see these great courses in a low key TV environment. We could see how they actually play on a day to day basis. Food for thought... although like you said it most likely will never happen.

Robert

[TEPaul]

If Miller didn't really understand the golf swing there's no way at all he could've played golf as well as he did. I don't know if that means some of the stuff he says about other people's swings on TV is all that legit though.

I've never believed that a TV commentator can really see a mistake in a putting stroke from the TV booth and Miller seems to see one in every missed putt he comments on. There's a whole lot more that goes into missing putts than a bad stroke!

Matter of fact, it workd that other way too. I know from experience in the course of my career that I've hit hundreds and hundreds of putts that were miss-read and then miss-hit and the one cancelled out the other and they went in! 

[John_Conley]

Not to take this thread in a different direction but does anybody know why Shell stopped filming the WWoG series. I love to watch the reruns on TGC but I don't think they even play them any more. Too bad as there were some CLASSIC matches. Let me know if you have any idea??

Robert

It has probably been about 5-7 years since they played them.  I remember seeing the Art Hills course on the lake in Michigan, Pine Barrens Mickelson v. Toms), and something in Aruba.  And the White Witch (Notah Begay?).

Why?

It was incredibly costly for the resort to pay the production costs.  They probably don't have 5-6 resorts a year willing to pony up hundreds of thousands of dollars.

[Kalen Braley]

Couldn't they change it up a bit and have a mini-tournament of sorts at 1 resort?

Who wouldn't want to see 8 guys at Bandon where the quarter finals are held on 1 course, the semi's a 2nd one, and the finals the last one?

It'd be a great way to get in lots of matches, save on costs, and the resort would only be down for a week.

[TX Golf]

Kalen,

I love that idea but it might be tough to convince the tour pros to commit that amount of time to a speacial/corporate event. Would you give them appearance fees or just a good looking purse to entice them. What would the format be? I think it would be a cool idea.

Robert

[Kalen Braley]

Robert,

A few of these ideas have been tossed around before.

It seems like an event like this would be perfect in October sometime after the season is done.  The format could be match play, or remain at 18 hole stroke play if they want to get thier moneys worth. It could be 8 guys with 7 head to head matchup over 3 days.

And if they get 8 big names to sign on, they are pretty much guarnateed the ratings and eventual advertising dollars that will flow with it.  Even if tiger loses on day one, would still be good to see Phil, Serg, Vijay, Ernie, etc guys tee it up and go head to head as everyone wants to see those guys go at each other.  A $3 million purse would probably do the trick with $1 mill to the winner, $500k to runner up, and $250k for everyone else.

I've heard other variants like having these guys wear old gear and play with older equipment, but not sure how vialbe that would be.

Anyways, just a few thoughts..

[Phil Benedict]

Johnny says things like "he's teeing it low so he probably wants to hit a fade" or "his front foot is turned in so he's trying to hit draw" which leads me to believe he understands the swing very well.  Maybe not Butch Harmon or Hank Haney well but pretty high level nonetheless.  

[TX Golf]

Kalen,

Those ideas sound great. Especially the old equipment. I don't know if Nike would allow Tiger to go tromping around in Knickers. haha. It would be awesome if they could do it on a course that most of us are not able to ever see. Make them play Sand Hills from the middle tees with Hickory. Members and special guests could be the only ones invited so the course wouldn't suffer. All the rest of us could just enjoy the experience on TV!!

[George Pazin]

A couple things:

1) I refuse to believe Sully and Jamie have swing faults.

2) Johnny would actually fit in pretty well here, I think - everyone thinks they know everything.

 

I've always thought the best way to show Johnny's - and almost every other golf announcers' - lack of swing knowledge was simply to show them the same player on two swings, one from a shot splitting the fairway, the other a little crooked (not a one hand helicopter swing, either). My money says they can't tell the difference. The many things they point out are the same for these guys on almost every (non-recovery shot) swing - they like robo pros. When they mishit one, it's just not possible to see with the naked eye in fast motion; a few degrees difference in the clubhead going 120 mph sends a ball way off-line, and you can't see that from the announcer's booth.

[John_Conley]

Good point, George.  Dick Vitale watches for the coach to get up and then yells, "YOU NEEEEEED A T.OHHHHH. BAAAAAAY-BEEEEEE!"  Everytime the ref signals timeout, which makes some think Vitale "just knows" what's going through the mind of Pitino or Boeheim.

Miller knows a shot went left and then throws in..."and you can see the hands flip over right HERE before impact."  Watch the swing and then tell me where you think it went!

[Jon Wiggett]

If Miller didn't really understand the golf swing there's no way at all he could've played golf as well as he did.

Tom,

trust me, the more you know about the swing the more you realise that it is impossible to repeat it with any sort of consistency. Bliss full ignorance is the best way to a good game What was it Tommy Amour used to say ' give me a man with big hands, big feet and no brain and I will make a golfer out of him'. Candidate Johnny perhaps if you believe some people though I would never say such a thing

[Jim Tang]

I have to believe a guy who shot 63 at the US Open and won multiple times on the PGA Tour knows a lot about the golf swing.  I love Johnny as an announcer because he tells it like it is, which is so refreshing.  Today, golf announcers are way too careful not to offend the egos of tour players.  They dance around the subject if a guy chokes, hits a horrible shot or make terrible decisions down the stretch.  Johnny isn't afraid to make these observations, live, in front of millions of people, knowing very well that what he says will most certainly get back to the players.

I live in Chicago, where the press has bashed Rex Grossman repeatedly over the last three or four years.  They hammer the Cubs and Bulls and Sox when they are not playing well.  Can you imagine a tour player taking that amount of heat for their performance?  It just won't happen.

Yes, golf is not like other major pro sports, and most tour guys are pretty good guys.  But hey, if you choose a public job, one in which you are paid millions to do, you should be ready for some analyzing.

Even if I don't agree with what Johnny has to say, at least he is saying something thought provoking.

Jim,

This is really the point.  We see when they make poor decisions. We see when they make a bad shot.  We see when they are choking like a dog.  What does he add to the table with these kind of comments? hy does Johnny feel like he needs to point out the obvious?

What you call "honest" broadcasting, I see as just pure negativity and don't know why he feels like he has to point out all thier weaknesses after just painfully watching them.

What we need, and what I'd pay money for is to have an announcer who comments and goes blow by blow on Johnnys analysis....now that would be some very revealing stuff.


Kalen -

Agreed that Miller can be critical of guys on tour, from shot selection to poor execution to dress to all types of stuff.  He can be negative.  However, I've also seen him recognize solid, good shots and describe to the viewer just how difficult that shot was that the pro just pulled off.  I think he certainly says some positive things along with the observations that could be seen as negative.  

Case in point.  At the Ryder Cup on Sunday Sergio stuck an iron at one of the early par 3 pretty tight.  Miller's comments were...."That was a great shot.  Not a good shot, a great shot."

Of course, on Saturday, Miller also said something about how Faldo had a longer relationship w/ his former caddie, Fanny, than he did with any of his wives.  It was a pretty funny comment and pretty much an honest observation, although it probably didn't have a place in the boradcast of the Ryder Cup on Saturday morning.

But hey, this is TV.  Positivity doesn't get ratings.  Saying stuff that might raise eyebrows does, creating controversey does.