[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

"It is not by accident or luck to create a great golf course, it takes hard work, dedication, and money to do it right."   Oct. 2008 Executive Golfer


With this quote it is safe to say that Sand Hills cannot be great.  How can a course be great if it is missing one of the three ingedients to greatness?

[John Kavanaugh]

I admire the financial risk DY took when building Sand Hills.  Any idea what kind of cash it took to build Sand Hills in three days ago money?  This idea that it was next to nothing is pure urban legend.

[Jim Nugent]

"It is not by accident or luck to create a great golf course, it takes hard work, dedication, and money to do it right." 

TOC?

[TX Golf]

haha.... three days ago money!!! that is funny.... as I don't have a retirement account yet

Robert

[Philippe Binette]

I would agree with Fazio on that one...

Hard work: Definitely

Dedication: Definitely from the design team. And it also means a real commitment of the owner toward the design team. You have to stick with the team, thrust them and get then involved until the end. It hasn't been the case on project I've worked on lately...

Money: Definitely. Even if you built a minimalist course (not necessarily a 20 millions $ budget Fazio gets) money is always useful. And a great course cannot exist if you built a great one but you use a B-class maintenance team after that.
Pumping money to get a knowledgeable maintenance team and super is essential to greatness. 

[Jeff_Brauer]

JK, I was told once. It was definitely less than most for golf course construction.  They obviously save on cart paths, earthmoving and because of the sandy soils, drainage.  Each could be $500K-1Mil on a Faz course. (typical)  To be fair, SH is on one of the great natural golf sites in the world.  Faz gets some of those sites, too, but also has to work in a few more housing units than the cottages!

[Adam Clayman]

If the quote was universally true, wouldn't "The Thunderbirds" have been a great success? Would Shadow Creek need to have been re-done so quickly?
Vallhala? Dismal River?

Esplain the mediocrity found on a "donald" design?

[John Kavanaugh]

JK, I was told once. It was definitely less than most for golf course construction.  They obviously save on cart paths, earthmoving and because of the sandy soils, drainage.  Each could be $500K-1Mil on a Faz course. (typical)  To be fair, SH is on one of the great natural golf sites in the world.  Faz gets some of those sites, too, but also has to work in a few more housing units than the cottages!

I'm only attempting to give Dick Youngscap credit for taking a large financial risk.  It's not like he hired some washed up local pro to go hop on a lawn mower and build him a course.  I honestly believe that some people on this site think Sand Hills was literally a gift from God.

[Kenny Baer]

I think Fazio's quote is accurate; even a "cheap" golf course is still a very expensive endeavor.  He doesn't say you can make a great course with only money but it certainly helps to have some of it.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Wouldn't it be a good idea for Fazio to do a low budget muni or daily fee course and give something back to the game?

What was the cost of his new daily fee course in El Paso- Butterfield Golf Trail? Here are the green fee rates:

www.butterfieldtrailgolf.com/kemper/courses/butterfield.asp?id=172&page=3518

[Jeff_Brauer]

JK, I was told once. It was definitely less than most for golf course construction.  They obviously save on cart paths, earthmoving and because of the sandy soils, drainage.  Each could be $500K-1Mil on a Faz course. (typical)  To be fair, SH is on one of the great natural golf sites in the world.  Faz gets some of those sites, too, but also has to work in a few more housing units than the cottages!

I'm only attempting to give Dick Youngscap credit for taking a large financial risk.  It's not like he hired some washed up local pro to go hop on a lawn mower and build him a course.  I honestly believe that some people on this site think Sand Hills was literally a gift from God.

JK,

I am no doe eyed fawn, but SH is close to that!  I don't think DY was the second coming, though.......but he deserves a lot of credit for that vision.

[John Kavanaugh]

Wouldn't it be a good idea for Fazio to do a low budget muni or daily fee course and give something back to the game?

Why, so he can steal a nice job from a working architect.  I think Fazio gives back to the game in the best way he can through his stewardship over great courses like Pine Valley, ANGC and Oakmont.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

What good does Fazio's work at PV, Oakmont or ANGC do for the golfing public and for those who are not members of those clubs who don't won't to pay high green fees at his high end public/resort courses such as Pelican Hill or travel to El Paso?

www.pelicanhill.com/#/?page=golf

Is there a Fazio public course in a major metro area that is priced under $75?

[Kyle Christensen]

The frog in atlanta is under 75.

[John Kavanaugh]

Steve,

I have two points.  

1.  I am not the slightest bit interested in famous architects designing courses for $1.  It is not true charity and does nothing to decrease the green fee for the golfing public.

2.  ANGC brings more joy to a larger number of public golfers every year than any other course in the country.  I believe Fazio does his work for free.

On your latest question.  Missouri Bluffs in St. Louis is under $75.

[RJ_Daley]

"It is not by accident or luck to create a great golf course, it takes hard work, dedication, and money to do it right."

I'd say, talent, hard work by a team, dedication of course, and the money thing is true to varying degrees and it depends on your definintion of 'money'.  Are we talking "a billion here and a billion there and pretty soon we are talking about 'real' money". - Ev Dirkson.  Or, obviously some money as nothing is free.  Two extremes.  In Fazio's league and his trademark business and design style, it takes 'real' money.  His fees aren't free for a reason.  He sells big time name.  There are plenty of design build golf course archies that do good value for the money.  Comparatively, they may be a bargain. 

I'll bet C&C get a whole bunch more $$$ today than they got for their SHGC job in 1993-5. 

Land is the thing.  Take land out of it, and then make the comparison of how much money it costs.  Fazio cost big on any land.  Other guys have talent, will work hard, are dedicated, and don't cost so much.  You pick'em.

[BCrosby]

"It is not by accident or luck to create a great golf course, it takes hard work, dedication, and money to do it right."   Oct. 2008 Executive Golfer

Anyone think talent ought to be in the mix?

I know lots of people who work hard, who are dedicated and who have lots of money. But they couldn't design a parking lot.

Bob

[Adam Clayman]

Bob, I'd add an understanding and respect for, those who came before, too.

[BCrosby]

Bob, I'd add an understanding and respect for, those who came before, too.

Yes, absolutely. I should have mentioned both.

Bob

[Mike_Young]

Pumping money to get a knowledgeable maintenance team and super is essential to greatness. 

Yep..that is the one thing all GREAT courses have in common.....and no matter what the initial capital cost....if no maintenance budget.....forget about greatness

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Kyle,

Thanks for reminding me about The Frog, west of Atlanta. I've played there but forgot about the rates. It looks like a good value:

http://golf.marriott-vacations.com/leisure/golf-courses/frog-golf-club/tee-times-and-rates.jsp

I also played White Columns before it went private. I think that may have been pricier.

The 2 Fazio courses in the Philadelphia area- Pine Hill and Hartefeld- have gone private but may still allow some public play at rates near $100.

Pine Hill allows public play from Monday to Friday before noon @ $105

[John Kavanaugh]

If we are going to start giving supers credit for great courses lets not forget the members.  You can not have a great course with idiot members.

[Mike_Young]

If we are going to start giving supers credit for great courses lets not forget the members.  You can not have a great course with idiot members.

I think you are on to something....

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