News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


wsmorrison

I've seen "Alps holes" used in 1896 by an architect from Scotland.  Did Macdonald employ the template concept at Chicago GC before NGLA?

Tom Paul,

Wasn't there a template named at Myopia pretty early on?  I hope to learn more about that course one of these days.  Maybe I can borrow your club history book sometime.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2008, 10:54:02 AM by Wayne Morrison »

Peter Pallotta

Re: What is the earliest usage of a named template hole in American golf?
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2008, 07:01:35 AM »
Wayne -

I don't have any idea about the answer to your question. But I was reading a little on the early days of golf and came across this article from 1900 in "Outing" magazine. I thought it was a neat little snapshot of those very early times, at least from one man's perspective. The article is called "The Development of Golf in the West" and it's by H.C. Charfield-Taylor. It starts:

"A club whizzed through the air — a sharp click—and Charles B. Macdonald drove the little sphere of gutta percha far over the water of Lake Michigan in approved St. Andrews fashion. I looked at Macdonald in amazement, and then followed his eyes in the direction of the Lake. He may have seen the ball, but I would have to take his word for it. That drive, however, started the golf craze in the West.

Macdonald teed another ball and handed his driver to me. I attempted to imitate his actions, and after a series of contortions which would have done honor to the rubber-man in Barnum’s side-show, tore up a foot of turf without in any way disturbing the equanimity of the little white object I had striven so viciously to hit. Macdonald laughed, and I said “damn.” That was in April, 1892 — and I have been saying it ever since.

Macdonald had come up to Lake Forest to lay out a golf course. With supreme contempt he eyed the trees and flower beds, and said the ground would never do. Finally he decided it was worth while trying — if only to give the game a start — and after a few glances about the place, he started out to pace off the holes. And what a course it was! The first hole was eighty yards in length, the longest a hundred and seventy-five.

Part of the course was amongst the trees and flower-beds of the adjoining places of Mr. C. B. Farwell and Mr. John Dwight, and the rest in a small park by the shore of the lake, where a sliced ball invariably went over the bluff and fell some two hundred feet to the beach below; but, such as it was, it had the honor of being the first golf course west of the Allegheny Mountains.

Macdonald did not play that first day. He merely drove a few balls to show me how the trick was done, and drove stakes in the ground to show where the holes were to be. When he went back to town, he left behind a collection of ancient Scottish clubs— relics of his college days at
St. Andrews— and a few old halls.

On the following Saturday, Urban H. Broughton, an English resident of Chicago, came up for a visit. He had played —at Sandwich, or some such place—and was keen to have a go at the game. The hole-cups were not yet in place, and it was raining torrents—but that did not dampen our ardor. In a blinding storm, we waded around the nine holes, losing most of Macdonald’s balls, and playing the game with the singular modification that holing out meant hitting the stake in the fewest number of strokes. I have heard vague rumors of some Scotchmen driving balls in Jackson Park, at an earlier date, until stopped by the police— but they were Scotchmen, and they were only driving balls, so I believe that that attempt in the rain was the first authentic golf game ever played in the West...

[After a bit about how few people played or understood the game, the article continues]

In ’93 it was a little better. But the coming of Sir Henry Wood, the British Commissioner General, to the Exposition, lent a certain dignity to the game—and during that year the Chicago Golf Club was conceived. Macdonald, who had never thoroughly approved of the unassuming efforts of the Lake Forest golfers, had, been casting about for a place where it would be possible to take a full swing without over driving the hole. Finally he discovered an Englishman with a farm of meadowland. The Englishman was J. Haddon Smith, the step-father of Miss “Johnny” Carpenter—the well-known player—and the farm was at Belmont, a suburban waystation, about twenty miles from the city.

Meantime, people had begun to hear of golf, so, with the assistance of such Scottish experts as James B. Forgan and Herbert and Lawrence Tweedie, a few Americans who were bold enough to try the experiment were "corralled" by Mr. Macdonald, and the Chicago Golf Club sprang into being. This was in the autumn of '93 - too late for the effort to bear visible fruit that year".

The article goes on to describe the growth of golf at Lake Forest and at the new clubs that were springing up in the area, but only makes a brief mention of the Chicago Golf Club opening in 1895, so I won't include more of it.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the earliest usage of a named template hole in American golf?
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2008, 08:14:03 AM »
I've seen "Alps holes" used in 1896 by an architect from Scotland.  Did Macdonald employ the template concept at Chicago GC before NGLA?


Wayne, I have only walked Chicago Golf Club (for the wonderful weekend of the 2005 Walker Cup), but didn't see an Alps hole - unless #17 might somehow meet the criteria. 

The present course was apparently the rebuilding of the original Macdonald course by Raynor, so I have no idea if the original course had the template holes.  I'd be willing to bet it did though, which would predate NGLA.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the earliest usage of a named template hole in American golf?
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2008, 08:39:35 AM »
Peter,

Thanks for that! I had read the story of the Farwell course in Lake Forest, but only abbreviated summaries from other sources. It was a pleasure to read most of the whole article to learn that the little course actually spilled out onto another estate and possibly a public park. I wonder how that could be, even in those simpler times?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Thomas MacWood

Re: What is the earliest usage of a named template hole in American golf?
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2008, 09:00:06 AM »
My guess would be the Alps at Myopia or the Redan at Brookline. I believe Macdonald's template idea came after the best hole debate in the early 1900s. There was a Redan added to the course at Wheaton but that came in the late 1900s.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: What is the earliest usage of a named template hole in American golf?
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2008, 09:06:58 AM »
Bill McBride,

If you read how CBM created the original CGC I think you'd change your mind on where the first template hole was introduced in America.

Mike_Cirba

Re: What is the earliest usage of a named template hole in American golf?
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2008, 09:29:53 AM »
I just copied and pasted this from something I wrote on a previous thread.   


One of the major points of contention when these Merion stories originally surfaced years back, and again recently, is the question of how Hugh Wilson and the Merion committee would  have possibly learned about Alps holes, and Redan holes, and such without the benefit of Macdonald and Whigham's expert knowledge.

However, we now see that a course Hugh Wilson played as far back as his college years had an "Alps" hole back in 1896, (check out the picture halfway down the left side) and another notable course had a "redan" and a "himalayas", a "maiden", a "plateau", and a "Quarry", and a "Home" hole by the time it hosted the 1910 US Open.

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9B06E0D61338E233A25755C0A9649D94679ED7CF

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1910/ag44d.pdf



Apparently these template holes were not uncommon at all, even going back to the earliest days.

I think what was uncommon was Macdonald's idea to take the best of the lot and try to put them all on one "ideal" course.


wsmorrison

Re: What is the earliest usage of a named template hole in American golf?
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2008, 09:41:32 AM »
I don't believe the Redan hole at TCC, Brookline existed until sometime after 1898.  I don't know when the hole was built, but I suspect it was built before Macdonald began building NGLA.  Was it by Willie Campbell?  I don't know.  Again, I was writing a book on Flynn and briefly mention the history of the course prior to Flynn.  The Brookline evolution study is very complicated and we pretty much stuck to
what the course was like immediately preceding Flynn's work, Flynn's activities and what remains or is lost today.

Did Macdonald use concepts from the UK in constructing the first two iterations of CGC prior to the Raynor redo?  I hope somebody can tell us.

Peter,

That is an excellent article, thank you for providing it.  It brings into question the exact roles did Macdonald, Forgan and Tweedie have in the design of CGC.  

I don't think there is sufficient evidence in the records of these early courses, and likely never were,  to make these kinds of determinations.   Trying to find evidence that provide incontestable proof is impossible or nearly so, even for clubs in the 1910s and 1920s.  While it may be a goal of historians, it is often an illusive one.  While it is something lawyers strive for, it is often a endless chase.

It is hard to say whether or not the early Alps holes preceding NGLA were inspired by Prestwick or were named simply because of the hill features themselves having nothing specifically to do with the design at Prestwick.

I am simply trying to determine if there was a point of origin prior to NGLA where hole concepts were replicated (conceptually or otherwise) based upon strategic features.  It seems clear that until Macdonald and NGLA, there was no strategy to poll among the game's elite what the best holes were and bring those concepts, in original and rendition forms to the US.  

wsmorrison

Re: What is the earliest usage of a named template hole in American golf?
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2008, 09:45:22 AM »
Mike,

The 1896 article you posted was exactly the one I was referring to.  I didn't want to post it for copyright purposes since I used ProQuest.  If it is available for free at the link you posted, then I'm sure it is fine.

As for the named holes at TCC, you read my mind as well.  I was going to get to that one later.  I don't think they existed as early as Ardsely Casino, but they did predate NGLA.  Scary how much we are thinking alike.  That Philadelphia Syndrome is powerful stuff  ;) ;D

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the earliest usage of a named template hole in American golf?
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2008, 09:47:20 AM »
Hutchinson's 1896 (?) book British Golf Links refers to named holes on many UK courses. So the idea of naming famous holes goes back at least that far. I would assume the idea carried over to the US early on as well.

Related question: Were holes always numbered? Was there a time when holes were only referred to by name? My recollection is that holes at TOC in the 19th century were usually referenced by name and not by number.

Bob

Patrick_Mucci

Re: What is the earliest usage of a named template hole in American golf?
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2008, 09:48:34 AM »
et. al.,

The names of holes isn't the defining criterion for determining their architectural configuration

wsmorrison

Re: What is the earliest usage of a named template hole in American golf?
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2008, 09:52:48 AM »
Pat,

Do you know that to be true in every instance?  I suspect not.  You may turn out to be right, but that's why I am exploring this area and welcome the contributions of everyone on the site.

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the earliest usage of a named template hole in American golf?
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2008, 09:54:22 AM »
Pat -

If the names given to famous holes didn't correspond to features of the holes in the real world, how did people know what those names meant?

Bob

Mike_Cirba

Re: What is the earliest usage of a named template hole in American golf?
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2008, 09:55:04 AM »
Mike,

The 1896 article you posted was exactly the one I was referring to.  I didn't want to post it for copyright purposes since I used ProQuest.  If it is available for free at the link you posted, then I'm sure it is fine.

As for the named holes at TCC, you read my mind as well.  I was going to get to that one later.  I don't think they existed as early as Ardsely Casino, but they did predate NGLA.  Scary how much we are thinking alike.  That Philadelphia Syndrome is powerful stuff  ;) ;D

Wayne,

Yes, that's a free article on the NYTiimes website.   

If you have a way of posting it here, it isn't in violation of anything.

Mike_Cirba

Re: What is the earliest usage of a named template hole in American golf?
« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2008, 09:59:11 AM »
Also, if I'm not mistaken, Willie Dunn designed Ardsley Casino.

I'm pretty certain he would have both seen and played the original Alps.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: What is the earliest usage of a named template hole in American golf?
« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2008, 10:03:12 AM »

Do you know that to be true in every instance? 

It doesn't have to be true in EVERY instance.
It ONLY has to be true in ONE instance.

For once it's true in one instance, it invalidates the other.


I suspect not. 

I suspect that you're incorrect.


You may turn out to be right,

I believe that will be the case.

We know that # 5 at NGLA is called hog back.
Are there any CBM-SR-CB holes with a relatively flat fairway with a spine/hogback in the putting surface, that are named "hog back" ?


but that's why I am exploring this area and welcome the contributions of everyone on the site.

I've seen holes named after the recognizable template hole names and they don't contain any substantive resemblance to the concept behind the
template name.

I believe the "name" was used in a generous, rather than a clearly defined, specific nature.

Clubs wanted to have the CBM-SR-CB logo, hence adapting the names of the recognized templates gave the club a form of validation.

One merely has to play a variety of their courses to see this.



Mike_Cirba

Re: What is the earliest usage of a named template hole in American golf?
« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2008, 10:05:52 AM »
Patrick,

What about the uses prior to CBM on courses built by Scottish professionals?

TEPaul

Re: What is the earliest usage of a named template hole in American golf?
« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2008, 10:07:21 AM »
Wayne:

According to Myopia's history in 1894 nine holes were laid out by three Myopia members and were in play in three months. One of those holes was named "Alps". It played from a tee near the present 10th tee over an abrupt hill to a green that today is the 11th green. It was probably around 200 and some yards. The daring high-risk option was to try to drive the ball directly over the steep hill that completely blinded the green that was set at a severely right to left sloping angle. The safer option was to drive the ball out to the left and approach the green up into its severe tilt from about the spot that most golfers approach the 300 plus yard 11th today. That original 1894 Myopia "Alps" hole was considered to be a par 4.

If there was an earlier hole in America named "Alps" I'm not aware of it or where it was.

wsmorrison

Re: What is the earliest usage of a named template hole in American golf?
« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2008, 10:08:48 AM »
I've seen holes named after the recognizable template hole names and they don't contain any substantive resemblance to the concept behind the
template name.


Pat,

You've also seen holes where the name was applied without any substantive resemblance to the concept but you thought it did.   You know, the third hole on one of my favorite courses  ;)

TEPaul

Re: What is the earliest usage of a named template hole in American golf?
« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2008, 10:21:48 AM »
 :-*
« Last Edit: September 11, 2008, 12:42:08 PM by TEPaul »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: What is the earliest usage of a named template hole in American golf?
« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2008, 10:22:35 AM »
Patrick,

What about the uses prior to CBM on courses built by Scottish professionals?


Which ones ?

And which holes on those courses ?

Patrick_Mucci

Re: What is the earliest usage of a named template hole in American golf?
« Reply #21 on: September 11, 2008, 10:25:17 AM »
I've seen holes named after the recognizable template hole names and they don't contain any substantive resemblance to the concept behind the
template name.


Pat,

You've also seen holes where the name was applied without any substantive resemblance to the concept but you thought it did.  


And that would be ?   ?   ?


You know, the third hole on one of my favorite courses  ;)


# 3 at NGLA ?  ?  ?

Certainly you don't deny the "Alps" configuration, do you ?



TEPaul

Re: What is the earliest usage of a named template hole in American golf?
« Reply #22 on: September 11, 2008, 10:29:04 AM »
Wayne:

According to the Myopia history book, golf first arrived in and around Boston on three private estates as early as 1892, belonging to the Hunnewell family, Moraine Farm on the shores of Wenham Lake belonging to the Phillips family and Appleton Farm, belonging to Myopia master huntsman, R.M. Appleton who was one of the three Myopia members who laid out Myopia's original nine in 1894. Appleton Farm still exists today pretty much in its entirety and is believed by the Appleton Farm Foundation to be the oldest farm in America still in the same family.

I believe the place is close to a thousand acres in Ipswich. I went to it last July but I did not ask the office if Appleton's original six holes are still there in some form. The place is really well run and they do know the history of the farm going way back. I'll call them and ask if those holes are still there in some form or if they know where they were or what they were. Perhaps Appleton had an "Alps" hole on his Appleton Farm course as it seems he and his two friends certainly found one at Myopia in 1894.

The first two tournaments on that original Myopia nine were held in June and July, 1894. Herbert Carey Leeds won them both.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the earliest usage of a named template hole in American golf?
« Reply #23 on: September 11, 2008, 10:30:37 AM »
Bill McBride,

If you read how CBM created the original CGC I think you'd change your mind on where the first template hole was introduced in America.

Where did I say my mind was made up?  I'm befuddled as usual.  Please enlighten me.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the earliest usage of a named template hole in American golf?
« Reply #24 on: September 11, 2008, 10:34:47 AM »
I've seen holes named after the recognizable template hole names and they don't contain any substantive resemblance to the concept behind the
template name.


Pat,

You've also seen holes where the name was applied without any substantive resemblance to the concept but you thought it did.   You know, the third hole on one of my favorite courses  ;)

Good example: there's a par 3 on Keith Foster's very nice course, "The Bandit," in New Braunfels, TX, that's named "Redan" on the scorecard.

It has no characteristic remotely similar to the prototype or any other Redan I've ever seen.  That cracked me up!

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back