[Garland Bayley]

Garland,

They aren't comparable.

the shapes are different, the chance of recovery is different.

Tell me if my thinking is wrong, but with a pot bunker the most likely outcome is one shot to get out near the pot bunker, sometimes even behind the bunker. With the eyebrow it is one stroke (the penalty stroke for unplayable) to get out near the eyebrow.

these eyebrows are 'in addition' to bunkers.  you don't see courses with bunkers and with pot bunkers.

Once again, tell me if I am wrong since I have not played TOC, but doesn't it have bunkers and pot bunkers?

maybe i'm just a wuss.  i dig the grassy mounds on #5 at bandon.  i can appreciate that type of hazard from time to time. 

but like Bill said....over and over and over and over......it's not fun.  well hit shots; balls just striped down the gut camber to and fro and nestle up into long hay where your only option is to take a drop.

that's over the top in my book.

i say mow down about half of 'em and let me have another crack at her......

look at this 8th hole again, Garland, i count around 15 eyebrows.  c'mon!!!

Aren't only about 3 of those that are beyond the double trunked tree in play? The rest are a convenient window dressing. Greg Norman window dresses with many bunkers out of play, as did Pete Dye at Whistling Straits. Can't we give Kidd some artistic license?

[Kalen Braley]

Garland...

As best as I can tell the logic is this.

Put bunkers, the pot variety or otherwise in the line of play = good.  TOC being the poster child where this is true on most of the holes.

Put eyebrow obstacles in the line of play on most holes = bad. 

I'd rather take my chances on a whispy sidehill lie than a buried lie or ball against the face in a pot bunker.

Does seem to be some double standards going on here.

[Garland Bayley]

Keep going Kalen. I am wondering if someone will draw the same conclusions about these things that I have without me stating my conclusions.

[Michael Dugger]

Guys, it gets back to making a golf course both challenging to the professional and playable to those of lesser ability.....Mackenzie's dictum.

The eyebrows primarily punish the lesser player, who needs not any more challenges put in front of them than the:

A) undulating greens
B) native gunk off the GGG (green golf grass)
C) bunkers
D) firm turf
E) tee shot carries

[Kalen Braley]

Guys, it gets back to making a golf course both challenging to the professional and playable to those of lesser ability.....Mackenzie's dictum.

The eyebrows primarily punish the lesser player, who needs not any more challenges put in front of them than the:

A) undulating greens
B) native gunk off the GGG (green golf grass)
C) bunkers
D) firm turf
E) tee shot carries

Michael,

Fair enough, I concur.

But can't all those same things be said about Pine Valley?  (We'd have to modify point B to include shrubs, bushes, trees, etc).  Is Pine Valley lesser because it demands these same things on hole after hole?

Couldn't Tethrow also be a high capper not recommended kind of course like PV is?  yet still be excellent in its own right?

Even Pacific Dunes is chock full of gorse and many very unrecoverable hazards/bunkers/lies that are otherwise brutal on the high capper as well.

I'm just not seeing all the massive criticsm of the place just because of the eyebrows.  Most look no worse than a 1/2 shot penalty which is often said of links style pot bunkering.

[Michael Dugger]

Kalen,

I want to be very clear here.  Saying there has been a "massive amount" of criticism seems to me to be the kind of out of control spin doctoring horse bleep that often is a result of "candid" discussion around this DG.

I have not found anyone who's played the course to be of the opinion it's crap.  Not in a million years.  There are a handful of us out there, however, who have taken the opposing position to Matt Ward, who thinks it is better than Bandon Trails and Bandon Dunes.

Tetherow is a freaking sweet course, probably the best in Bend and in my opinion right there with Chambers Bay.  It's stunning, awesome, possesses many of the features and things we like about GCA in general. blah blah blah

But it isn't Pacific Dunes, and never will be.

The guys in the clubhouse, Martin and Caleb, have been so nice to me I wouldn't ever want it to get back to them that Michael Dugger thinks Tetherow is a pile of garbage.  It's simply not true....not in the least.

But your analogy to PV is fairly apt.  I've never played PV, but I imagine Tetherow probably plays a lot easier!!!! 

I'm just not a fan of so many eyebrows.  That's my only complaint.  I can only "strategize" around so many hazards, Tetherow left my head spinning. 

#6 is kinda weird too.  But otherwise it has firm turf so you can play the ground game, it has thrilling hazards, a short par 4, the awesome, dramatic quarry hole #17. 

Great variety out there.......it's a helluva a course....and a really hard one too.

But I would not prefer it to BD or BT.....and that's where my input into this foray started, at least any "negative" input. 

Everyone who can should make a bee line to Tetherow before it's fully private.   

[Garland Bayley]

I am of the opposite view of Michael as the more I think about them, I think these features have a touch of genius in them.

EDIT: I forgot to say that it is not the genius that Matt inanely thinks they have.

[Garland Bayley]

I picked two pictures that shows the primary hazard on the golf course shown in the landscape.
Unfortunately, I didn't find one that shows as many eyebrows as the one Michael chose, and I couldn't choose that one since it did not show the surrounding hilly landscape.

Compare them.

Red Sky Ranch


Tetherow


I got a lot of criticism from guess who and others when I wrote that the features on the Red Sky Ranch course were butt ugly and didn't match the landscape. IMO the opposite is true of the features at Tetherow. The are attractive and they fit into the landscape very well.

Just the beginnings of the genius I see in the eyebrows and mohawks.

[Rob Rigg]

FYI - The Hotel and the Lodges/Townhomes probably will not be built for several years, at least, because of the RE downturn in Bend.

At that point, Tetherow will be private and you will only be able to get on if you stay at the hotel.

They have currently sold or are closing on about 60 of the 390 or so home lots.

I think they are pretty stoked with the revenue being generated from the public rounds at $175 a pop so hopefully we will have at least two years to enjoy before you have to shack up in the hotel or book a lodge.

[Matt_Ward]

Guys for all the bellyaching -- it's simple -- repeat after me -- if you don't like Tetherow don't go there. Simply tee it up at the plain vanilla formulaic typical courses you like. Having less people to compete with available tee times for such layouts is music to my ears.

If Tetherow were remotely as narrow as Dunluce at Royal Portrush I'd second the comments about it being grossly unfair. The reality is that is provides more than sufficient width and if people have the brains to play the appropriate tees the challenge presented is more than fair.

Look, I am really tired of the ridiculous debate.

The idea that Bandon Dunes and Bandon Trails are both significantly better than Tetherow is laughable to me. I like both the Bandon layouts but they both receive a spike of favorable reviews due to the proximity of its big brother neighbor Pac Dunes.

Look some people can only handle steak and potato type food. No prob there. Just realize that steak and potato type folks are literally clueless on spicey food like Thai or its equivalent. Tetherow pushes the envelope and I salute Kidd for avoiding predictable conventionality because it falls within the comfort zone of people who only expect golf design to go from one direction.

[Michael Dugger]

yer a douchebag, Ward.  Lovely "you are either for us or against us" philosophy.

Why don't you stop using GCA.com as your soapbox and stick to doing the reviewing stuff in your magazine.

I thought this was a discussion forum for discussing golf courses.  You are reducing this discussion to either we agree with you or we should quit our complaining.

There have been something like three different threads on Tetherow, yet you felt the need to start yet another because why?  Seems to me Because Matt effing Ward has been to Tetherow and now we better listen up.


"Look, I am really tired of the ridiculous debate," you write.

Well, it was really enjoyable discussing the merits of Tetherow with you, Matt, with your big "open mind" and all.  I really got a lot out of that.

Your one man...........one little insignificant pissant on the planet.  a blow hard at that.....

Like I said, keep your soapbox for Jersey Golfer, some of us here are really tired of your "big timing."

[Rob Rigg]

There have now been 5 threads on Tetherow and the same thing has been repeated in various formats about 50 times.

David Kidd would be really stoked if he knew about this - based on what I have read about him - he loves it when his courses stir the pot.

Well done David (wherever you are).

PS - Tetherow rulz!!!! 

[Garland Bayley]

...
The idea that Bandon Dunes and Bandon Trails are both significantly better than Tetherow is laughable to me. I like both the Bandon layouts but they both receive a spike of favorable reviews due to the proximity of its big brother neighbor Pac Dunes.
...

I got news for you pardner. Bandon dunes was getting very favorable reviews long before Pacific Dunes even existed.

I notice you have been called out on your ridiculous statements about Kidd's eyebrows enabling the goodies of shot making and shot placement that you seemed to think could not be found otherwise, but somehow overlook responding other than to call solid logic "inane".

[Rob Rigg]

I always thought that the creation of Pacific Dunes was one of the reasons that Bandon Dunes had fallen "slightly" out of favor with many GCA fans?

PD is the new girlfriend who is just that little bit more special.

It makes you wonder what Kidd's second course at Bandon would have looked like?

Sidenote - The new T+L Golf Magazine reader rankings rated BD above PD in the West with Pebble in first place.

[Allan Long]

Nothing anyone says is going to change anyone else's mind about the course. But, as I said on one of the other threads, don't let a few pictures dictate whether you go play the course or not. Everyone has the right to dislike the course, but at least play it before you come to that distinction.

Golf courses are going to go through some change in their lifetime. TPC Sawgrass is a perfect example. When it was first built, it was deemed too tough, unplayable in parts, etc. Just as that course evolved, Tetherow may as well. Personally, I really like the course a great deal, but also think there a few areas that could be modified a bit. But, if it doesn't happen, it's not going to change my opinion of the course.

[Matt_Ward]

Michael:

When in doubt bump the discussion to the lowest levels with name calling.

Classic.

You're the guy who can't hack the fact that courses can be so different and unique because they are beyond your narrow interpretation of what quality golf design can be about. Kidd didn't settle for formulaic he made it a point to do what Rob said -- stir the pot and he did so marvelously in my book.

Michael, I could give a rats ass whether you like what I say or not. Do yourself a favor -- if you don't like what I say don't respond.

I've heard all your hard luck stories about why the course fails and I took the time to respond to them in detail. Look, at the end of the day, you're not going to change my mind and I could frankly careless whether I change yours.

I really liked the place and took the considersable time to identify the reasons behind it. You are the guy who is barking and whining about what others have to say because it doesn't fall within your ill-conceived and ill-define comfort zone.

So be it.

Move on ...

[Garland Bayley]

...
Michael, I could give a rats ass whether you like what I say or not. Do yourself a favor -- if you don't like what I say don't respond.
...

I know I'm not Michael, but I'm sorry Matt, what you write demands a response, because you put out so much disinformation/misinformation.

[Garland Bayley]

Continuing the theme of "eyebrows" and "mohawks" being genius:

One thing that can be deduced about them is that pot bunkers are of course depression and the land around them may run down to them, whereas Kidd's features are arched upwards and the land around them may run up to them. Therefore, a ball running near a pot bunker is more likely to run into the bunker, whereas a ball running near an eyebrow or a mohawk is more likely to run  away and past the feature. Furthermore, a ball landing in a pot bunker will not escape, whereas a ball landing on these new features may escape especially if landing on the backside.

[Michael Dugger]

My hole by hole breakdown of BT vs Teth.

#1 even
#2 BT
#3 BT
#4 BT
#5 BT
#6 BT
#7 BT
#8 BT
#9 Teth

#10 Teth
#11 BT
#12 Teth
#13 BT
#14 BT
#15 Teth
#16 even
#17 Teth (by a hair)
#18 even

I figure that as BT wins 5 up

[Garland Bayley]

Continuing the theme of "eyebrows" and "mohawks" being genius:

As we know a pot bunker, or any bunker for that matter, requires maintenance. The side can cave in, the sand can be depleted or contaminated, there may be drainage issues, the player or caddy has to take time to restore the bunker for the next player's use. These new features would seem to me to be maintenace (and thereby cost) free.

So what are the downsides? As with any new feature that players are not accustomed to, they will probably feel like a gimmick for a significant number of players until and if they gain widespread acceptance and familiarity.

In a game where visibility is highly valued, they diminish the visibility of the playing field.

With this considerations, I think they are a definite plus.

[Michael Dugger]

Garland

How do you feel about missing a green right and having to chip over a mohawk to get to the pin.

On this same hole there is OB long and water left.  The front is bunkered, the green tilts away from you.

No place to miss, none at all.
 

[Mike_Cirba]

I really can't add anything more to the Tetherow debate, but I did want to say that you're looking particularly fine today, Garland.   

[Garland Bayley]

Garland

How do you feel about missing a green right and having to chip over a mohawk to get to the pin.

On this same hole there is OB long and water left.  The front is bunkered, the green tilts away from you.

No place to miss, none at all.
 

I don't know Michael,

How do you feel about missing a green right and having to chip over a penal bunker to get to the pin?

I think you are describing a bit of architecture for which the quality is not determined by the use of a mohawk.

[Garland Bayley]

I really can't add anything more to the Tetherow debate, but I did want to say that you're looking particularly fine today, Garland.   

I'm playing particularly well yesterday and today too. Check out the LPGA leaderboard.

[Garland Bayley]

Jeff put this thread up, because he wasn't quite as impressed with Tetherow as others have been. I started posting on this thread, because I agree with Jeff. IMO Tetherow does not measure up to Chambers Bay. Part of the reason is the one caveat that I put on the genius of the "eyebrows" and "mohawks". They restrict visibility. With that restriction, it seems to me that Tetherow will never be able to have the expansive look of Chambers Bay. Also, to a certain extent they hide what is there that may be of interest.

Matt Ward seems to be fond of opining that the Links of ND doesn't really get started until the 7th hole. IMO the 2nd hole at LND is better and more fun than any hole in the first 6 holes at Tetherow. I guess that means that subconsciously at least Matt must think LND is better than Tetherow.

I guess some of you that have read what I have written in the past will realize that Tetherow gets no credit (or perhaps even demerits) from me for having ponds on the course. It wasn't enough to have water on the front nine, for some reason it had to be reintroduced on the back nine. As someone else commented in their review, Bend is not in Florida!

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