News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Maintenance Seminar Week #1 - Show Me Your Grass
« on: September 08, 2008, 01:35:00 PM »
I had the good fortune to get out to my home muni this past weekend, and I really wish I had taken my camera with me - I think I saw every type of grass condition possible. Short green, long brown, and every shade and condition in between.

Some questions:

So how does the average Joe determine if the course is in healthy condition?

Can we distinguish easily between dead grass and dormant grass?

How quickly can a greenkeeper take the grass from soft to firm, or vice versa?

How long does it take for a course to recover from the stresses of hosting a tournament at any level?



One thing I've noticed is that my feet can quickly tell if I'm playing muni clay or walking on the spongier turf of many modern courses.

For the golfer posters out there: Please add your own questions.

For the greenkeepers and superintendents: Please help us learn.

Thanks in advance to all contributors to the discussion. (Apologies in advance to John Kavanaugh, I know he'll find some way to infer nefarious intent on my part.)

 :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maintenance Seminar Week #1 - Show Me Your Grass
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2008, 02:04:16 PM »
Just how much of an oversimplification/generalization is the phrase "green is bad and brown is good"?

For a lay person involved with a club's course maintenance,is this a fair goal to set for a Super(assuming the club's Green Chairman and Committee "have his back" with the membership)?

Grant Davey

Re: Maintenance Seminar Week #1 - Show Me Your Grass
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2008, 03:12:27 PM »
George,

The easiest way to learn all that you have asked is to go help your Superintendent this fall when his staff dwindles to nothing. Ask him questions, do the work and you'll receive a frontline education and a different appreciation of the courses you play. :)

As for your questions, here's a shot:

If it's not dead it's healthy.

If it has roots, it's alive.

Depends on drainage/thatch/expectations and resources.

Depends on how much time you give it and how far you pushed it.

Grant


Grant Davey

Re: Maintenance Seminar Week #1 - Show Me Your Grass
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2008, 03:29:51 PM »
Brown and green grass. ;D


Greg Chambers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maintenance Seminar Week #1 - Show Me Your Grass
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2008, 03:41:42 PM »
looks like an application of bug spray to one's legs
"It's good sportsmanship to not pick up lost golf balls while they are still rolling.”

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maintenance Seminar Week #1 - Show Me Your Grass
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2008, 04:21:52 PM »
George,

The easiest way to learn all that you have asked is to go help your Superintendent this fall when his staff dwindles to nothing. Ask him questions, do the work and you'll receive a frontline education and a different appreciation of the courses you play. :)

I love this idea and I will pursue it after I've completed my unpaid volunteer work for a few of the design firms on board. :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Steve Okula

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maintenance Seminar Week #1 - Show Me Your Grass
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2008, 04:27:33 PM »
I had the good fortune to get out to my home muni this past weekend, and I really wish I had taken my camera with me - I think I saw every type of grass condition possible. Short green, long brown, and every shade and condition in between.

Can we distinguish easily between dead grass and dormant grass?


I'll try to field this one.

Pick up a plug of the grass. Pull the brown leaf back from where it attaches to the supporting stalk. If you see some white/green tissue in there, even a little, the grass is alive.

You can also see by the roots. But there are dead roots and living roots. If the roots have very white, fine, strands, the grass is alive.

Also, you could identify the species, because if the grass is bermudagrass, it's alive. You can't kill that stuff.
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

David Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maintenance Seminar Week #1 - Show Me Your Grass
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2008, 04:38:48 PM »
I really don't know anything about grass other than what the different kinds look like.  Could someone do a brief summary of the types of grasses common to golf courses with advantages/disadvantages and preferred climate for each?

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maintenance Seminar Week #1 - Show Me Your Grass
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2008, 04:41:19 PM »
Also, you could identify the species, because if the grass is bermudagrass, it's alive. You can't kill that stuff.

You aren't trying hard enough.....mow the stuff at greens height under heavy shade!.... ;D

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maintenance Seminar Week #1 - Show Me Your Grass
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2008, 04:57:48 PM »
David, a few google searches should yield you a good start.

http://www.ipm.ucdavis.edu/PMG/r785900111.html#BENTGRASS

http://www.ntep.org/contents2.shtml

George, here is a google search for what some of the diease and maintenance issues look like, and related matters...
http://images.google.com/images?gbv=2&hl=en&q=turf+grass%2C+grubs%2C+spikes+of+death&btnG=Search+Images

Turfgrass can be fun, and you might get a kick out of these turf grass grub and slug producing exercises and control. 
http://www.rinconvitova.com/slug_Cranshaw_organic_gardening.htm
« Last Edit: September 08, 2008, 05:08:25 PM by RJ_Daley »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Maintenance Seminar Week #1 - Show Me Your Grass
« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2008, 05:11:44 PM »
George,
 I really don’t see it as a green vs. brown debate as much as a lush vs. lean discussion.

Remember grasses are green because of the presence of chlorophyll. Its chlorophyll that allows photosynthesis to occur which gives the grass plant the food it needs to live. Healthy grass can produce excess food (carbs) and store it for times when the grass is under stress and cannot produce enough food. Most cool season grasses that go into mid-summer stress are unable to produce enough food and they rely on stores to get through the tough times. I believe that’s why most cool season grass grow so vigorously in the spring, it’s like they know tough times are coming and they need to bank food.

Brown means no chlorophyll which means no photosynthesis which means no life if the plant stays brown for an extended period during it’s growing season. Many plants can and do go dormant, but when they do it during their growing season it’s a last ditch effort to survive. Thus, I’d be very concerned if I had brown bentgrass in the summer. Yes, it may go dormant, but if it hasn’t been green, and producing and storing needed food, I’d be very concerned about it going from dormant to dead.

I think when Adam talks about a brown patina, what he is really seeing is an off green, off color look that he associates with firm and fast. I love that look, and I do think it’s manageable,  but when I see it, if I get down on my hands and knees and brush the turf canopy and don’t see some green, I’m getting worried. Bottom line for me, I don't mind a little brown, but I need some green too! ;D

« Last Edit: September 08, 2008, 05:25:07 PM by Don_Mahaffey »

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maintenance Seminar Week #1 - Show Me Your Grass
« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2008, 11:43:01 PM »
George, I've already learned something. Thanxs Don. And Yes a patina is only a hint on the top surface. I'll be looking for some green on my hands and knees from now on.


"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maintenance Seminar Week #1 - Show Me Your Grass
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2008, 12:20:37 PM »
Terrific answers thus far, thanks. I'll try to think up some more questions to keep you busy. :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Michael

Re: Maintenance Seminar Week #1 - Show Me Your Grass
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2008, 12:26:19 PM »
I love the learning curve here...I always just considered if my shot went to  the shorter type grass the better when playing ;D

 I do have a deep understanding of long weeds/trees/bushes/marsh...........

Chris Tritabaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maintenance Seminar Week #1 - Show Me Your Grass
« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2008, 02:06:28 PM »
A couple of weeks ago I took the following pictures in preparation for a post on my blog discussing good brown vs. bad brown.  Then I happened on this post and thought the photos would be perfect.  I definitely agree with Don M. in that there needs to be the presence of green within the brown to show that the turf in indeed healthy and dormant rather than dead.

The photo below shows one of our fairways from a distance.  The photo was taken at the end of August after our longest period without rain. 


The next photo is one of the "brown" areas up close. 


The last photo was taken yesterday after cooler weather and a good amount of rain.  While the photo is taken look towards the green rather than from the green, I think you get the idea. 

« Last Edit: September 11, 2008, 02:08:19 PM by Chris Tritabaugh »

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maintenance Seminar Week #1 - Show Me Your Grass
« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2008, 02:11:08 PM »
Thanks for the photos and thoughts, Chris.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maintenance Seminar Week #1 - Show Me Your Grass
« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2008, 01:19:19 PM »
Thanks for the input, everyone.

Next week:

Grow Me A Golf Course - Q&A about growing in a new golf course.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

JSPayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maintenance Seminar Week #1 - Show Me Your Grass
« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2008, 07:40:39 PM »
Some questions:

1) So how does the average Joe determine if the course is in healthy condition?

2) Can we distinguish easily between dead grass and dormant grass?

3) How quickly can a greenkeeper take the grass from soft to firm, or vice versa?

4) How long does it take for a course to recover from the stresses of hosting a tournament at any level?



Answers:

1) If you, as an average Joe, don't see anything that would concern you if that grass was growing in your front yard, it's probably healthy. If you do happen upon areas that strike you as concerning, it never hurts to ask the Super. You'll either learn something new.....or learn just how much your Super doesn't know or may be trying to hide. We get paid because we're supposed to be the experts. If a Super can't field a question from an average Joe about the health of a particular patch of grass, I'd be worried. But don't go ask the Pro Shop. If a good relationship exists between Maintenance and Pro Shop, you'll get a half right answer. If no relationship exists, you'll get lip service.

2) Dead and dormant can be easy if you know your grasses. There are some that go dormant, and some that don't. If you know grasses and you see one that doesn't go dormant looking that way, it MIGHT be dead. Check on it again in a few weeks and if hasn't changed, it probably is dead. If it's a grass that does go dormant (Bermuda is the most common example), it can be very hard to tell. Use Grant's root test. Pull some up and see if the roots look juicy and white. That's what the plant lives off of when it's dormant. If little to no roots exist, or they're frail and/or crumbly, probably dead (but it might be on purpose if Bermuda is an undesired grass!).

3) Soft to firm depends on a WIDE range of variables, including but not limited to: irrigation, soil, thatch, type of grass, time of year, amount of sun/shade, topographical location (in a swale or on top of a hill), and several more I'm probably forgetting. Each course will be different, there is no general rule. But your Super should be able to make a pretty educated, if not exact, guess. Depends on his experience with that property.

4) Depends on scale of tournament and stresses that have been imposed on the grass. I can guarantee you that there are some courses that are so dialed in that, in small scale tournaments, they don't have to recover.....they can survive a decent size tournament with no problem. Most high level and PGA events vary. And it varies by area. Greens, fairways, roughs, perimeters, etc......all will recover at different rates.

The real conclusion here with these four questions is that there is a reason why superintendents typically make the second highest salary at a golf course (behind the GM), because we're supposed to be trained experts capable of producing what agriculture defines as a "high dollar specialty crop", 100+ acres of grass put under constant unnnatural stress and maintenance regimes. Grant said it perfectly that the only way to get a good answer is to spend time with the Super or on the course in a maintenance role yourself. A Super himself only knows once he's gained experience at his property. And the exactness to which YOUR Super can answer these questions for YOUR course should show how good of a Super you have.

I can answer all of the above questions for my property, but that wouldn't help you, because it's not universally applicable. Hence the generic answer you get above.  ;D
"To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing it's best, night and day, to make you everybody else means to fight the hardest battle any human being can fight; and never stop fighting." -E.E. Cummings

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back