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Mike_Cirba

Re: Make a difference with your recommendation
« Reply #25 on: August 30, 2008, 10:50:55 PM »
Mark,

I've never played a Forrest Richardson designed or renovated/restored course and I know he participates here fairly regularly, but from his website, it seems almost all of his work to date is in desert climes in AZ and CA.

I'm also pretty sure I can't call his design style (at least from pictures) very classically inspired.



This picture is perhaps a bit over the top and not indicative of much of his work, but folks can see more of his original and renovation work at his website;

http://www.golfgroupltd.com/las_palomas.html

Has he ever been in charge of a project on clay based soils in the northeast?   I'm asking simply because I think it might take some particular agronomic knowledge to handle properly given the differences in climate, rainfall, drainage, grasses, etc., than the desert.

Also, what course would you point to as his greatest restoration work to date?

Again...I'm not looking to start another "Merion-style" debate, either, but we also all know that some architects are more sensitive/skilled/interested in true restoration, and we all saw that in the case of the first Merion debate on here, with the Tom Fazio "restoration" that turned out to be anything but, at least as far as the bunker project was concerned.

If some of us seem defensive, it's simply because we're looking for proof of concept on the ground, beyond a nice and generous and idealistic idea.

Thanks.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2008, 12:22:56 PM by MikeCirba »

John Kavanaugh

Re: Make a difference with your recommendation
« Reply #26 on: August 30, 2008, 11:01:29 PM »
Mike Cirba,

While it is fun to see you attack Forrest, I have to say your tag is a lie.  Golfweek chose to run an article about this organization and now a Golfweek rater is calling out the ethics of the situation under a fake name.  Sure this is a marketing scheme but what qualification do you have to call Forest out?  I know that Fine is a member of Lehigh, a course I am sure you have enjoyed a comp or two.  Is he also unqualified in your opinion?

The Cirba lie: Once you know some sicko is searching your personal life on the Internet, it's time to use a different name.   How sad is is that we see that kind of stuff on this great site?

Mike_Cirba

Re: Make a difference with your recommendation
« Reply #27 on: August 30, 2008, 11:04:46 PM »
John,

Please go away.

The faster you leave me alone, the faster I go back to my full name here.

If you believe my tag line has nothing to do with you, then you shouldn't be offended by it.

John Kavanaugh

Re: Make a difference with your recommendation
« Reply #28 on: August 30, 2008, 11:20:33 PM »
Mike Cirba,

I wish you would consider how it will harm the site by including a lie about me in a tag on everyone of your posts.

Now please tell me.  What about Mark Fine makes you think he does not understand classic architecture? 

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Make a difference with your recommendation
« Reply #29 on: August 30, 2008, 11:27:06 PM »
Quote
As for those who think this is a marketing campaign for Forrest, I suggest they contact the founder of KIC.  Dan's heart is in the right place as is his wallet and instead of giving his money to the United Way or some other charity, he is going to do something unique as he thinks he can make a difference for golf and for kids.  Give it some time before you get so negative and start looking for the positives.  

Mark
  
Note:  I wasn't working with Forrest at Olivas Park.  He's a slow learner but he is becoming educated

MARK,
NO WHERE HAVE I MENTIONED FORREST NOR HAS FORREST COMMENTED HERE.....
YOU SEEM TO SAY ABOVE THAT FORREST IS BEING EDUCATED.....I THINK HE IS PROBABLY CAPABLE OF DOING WHAT HE WANTS WITH ANY OF THESE COURSES.....BTW WHO IS EDUCATING FORREST....I MIGHT WANT SOME CLASSES..... ;) ;)
AND I AM NOT NEGATIVE OF THE KIC..I AM CYNICAL....
I THINK IT IS SOMEONE OTHER THAN FORREST TRYING TO MARKET THEMSELVES....
SORRY I LET THIS TYPE OF BS BUG ME.....I SHOULDN'T

"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike_Cirba

Re: Make a difference with your recommendation
« Reply #30 on: August 30, 2008, 11:43:39 PM »
I'd like to also comment that I have nothing against the designs of Forrest Richardson, (as mentioned, I've never had the pleasure of playing any course he has been involved with) and I know that so much of architecture is related to the wishes of the owner, the background, education, and work-related experience of the architect, and a whole host of factors.

I'm just not getting the connection between Mark Fine and Forrest Richardson and say, Donald Ross at Mark Twain or Hugh Wilson at Cobb's Creek.

If there is something on the ground I can look at that will establish that connection, please just let me know and educate me.

I know you have a long established, sincere interest in classic architecture, and we come from the same ideology, but no matter how much I love this type of design, I wouldn't dream or claim in a million years that I had the education and experience to pull it off myself.

Instead, I'd rely on proven experts and that's why I'm asking you about Forrest's experience and results in this area, or excepting that, your own.

Thanks.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2008, 11:55:34 PM by MikeCirba »

TEPaul

Re: Make a difference with your recommendation
« Reply #31 on: August 31, 2008, 01:26:40 AM »
"Tom,
Check out their website.  That should answer many of your questions."

Mark:

I'll do that. But you hung this theard up here on this website and I asked you a fairly simple question because I figure you must know the answers if you posted a thread like this one on here about KIC. I'll be glad to check out the KIC website but do you have a problem with answering my question to you on here? 


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Make a difference with your recommendation
« Reply #32 on: August 31, 2008, 07:59:10 AM »
Mark:

I just read through most of the web site and noticed that your name and Forrest's name aren't really in there anywhere -- yet Brad Klein's article makes clear that you two would do the "course assessments" for the group.  It didn't say how much those assessments will cost, or whether a club could hire someone else to do them, instead of you.

I was also surprised to find myself quoted extensively on page 2, when I didn't even know the organization existed.


Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Make a difference with your recommendation
« Reply #33 on: August 31, 2008, 08:17:10 AM »
Many quotes from Mark and Dan Bergman are in a story from the Morning Call back in July.  Google still keeps a cache of the story:

http://tinyurl.com/kicstory

Edit:  I just noticed a better formatted version of the story is on the KIC web page!

http://www.keepitclassic.org/press/worthwhile_072308.html
« Last Edit: August 31, 2008, 08:20:47 AM by Joe Bausch »
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Make a difference with your recommendation
« Reply #34 on: August 31, 2008, 09:55:29 AM »
I noted just now the reference to Mark Twain golf course in Elmira.  As far as I could tell when I played it two years ago, its design was not compromised in the least by the municipality.  Could it stand for more TLC?  Of course, but so can every muni in the country.  Bethpage received what it received because it could provide a greater service to the state.  Torrey received its big bone when a group of "friends" took over fund-raising and much of the planning for the event, correct?  Mark Twain hosted the state girls and boys events in 2007, testament and testimony to its current conditioning.  I would not rate it as a critical target for KIS.

In a city like Buffalo, with a hard control board, it will be difficult to find people dedicated enough to golf (when so much else needs attention) to devote resources to keeping up a Cazenovia Park, night and day different from what I saw at Mark Twain in Elmira.  If you got a good super in there and she/he did the work, she/he would be snapped up by a fine club before long and the city would be looking for someone else.  I'll have to do more work to find out how the Olmstead Parks conservancy (the board that oversees the parks system) is related to the city; if it is independent, then there is hope.  If the OPC is just a finger on the hand of the municipality, then the OPC will not receive its due.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

wsmorrison

Re: Make a difference with your recommendation
« Reply #35 on: August 31, 2008, 10:05:01 AM »
I would think that most classic era courses have suffered from years of benign neglect.  Sure, bunkers have probably been lost over time and those that remain need to be reworked to improve drainage and new sand.  Probably the most acute need to address is turf conditions.  I'm sure tree plans need to be implemented as well.  But how much real architecture is required?  In general, probably little because so few design changes have been made over the years.

Once these relatively easy restorative efforts have been put into place, what about KIC or other approaches ensure that the maintenance improvements can and will be kept in place?  That is why these classic era municipal and public courses have failed over the years.  Ongoing upkeep is essential.  How is this important aspect addressed?

Thomas MacWood

Re: Make a difference with your recommendation
« Reply #36 on: August 31, 2008, 10:37:30 AM »
Mark
What is your connection to this group? I noticed on their site under links that your site and Forrest's site are the only two gca sites linked.

wsmorrison

Re: Make a difference with your recommendation
« Reply #37 on: August 31, 2008, 05:39:12 PM »
Mark,

You've posted this exact topic before.  This rerun is a bit odd.  Please, enough with the self-promotion.   I don't see the point.  Do some projects, let's see the benefits and then we can get behind the effort.  For now, there seems to be way too many conflicts and self-servicing while keeping the land owners and end-users out of the process.  Money shouldn't dictate everything.  That goes beyond charity and crosses the line of arrogance and insult.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2008, 05:42:38 PM by Wayne Morrison »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Make a difference with your recommendation
« Reply #38 on: August 31, 2008, 06:28:19 PM »
For those wondering about maintenance, that is a big part of what would be provided – a detailed manual worked out with the superintendent for the on-going up keep of the course.  It is briefly discussed on the KIC website.

Tom Doak,
Our names are not listed because we are not the story.  The story is Dan Bergman and his board who are trying to do something good for the game of golf (and putting lots of their own money which will surely be millions to do it).   I will look to see where you are quoted but I’m guessing Dan got your quotes from what we published of our interview with you.  Have you ever spoken with him? 

Tom Paul,
I’ve tried to address some of the questions but no matter what I say, some people don’t seem to like the answers. 

Mike C,
You should meet Forrest before you draw your conclusions.  He's given more back to this game than most any other architect I've ever met. 

Ronald,
One of the big issues with Mark Twain GC is that it apparently loses money and city officials need to do something such as try to sell it, shut it down, or it might turn into who knows what?  Here is a quote from the Star-Gazette in Elmira, NY

"If the legislation fails, the city would have to look seriously at making investments in the golf course over time to enhance its playability and draw more golfers, Tonello said.  "Golfing is a tough business, and we'd have to continue to market and expand and make the course appealing," he said. "That's going to cost money. We don't want to go there, but that's part of things that we're already discussing."

Tom W,
I’m tried to explain what our role is with KIC.  Forrest and I are not employees.  In some ways we are no different than an accounting firm that a non-profit would contract with or a law firm for their contracts and legal work or a marketing firm, etc.  These are services/expertise that many non-profits don’t have in-house.  They need us for what we have to offer and Dan talked to many others before making his decision.  Who would you propose identifies/evaluates all the prospective courses that KIC could target, reviews all the proposals that get throw at them (and there are already many), and helps make sure they accomplish what they need to accomplish in an effective and cost efficient manner with their funds.  Dan is a very successful trial attorney.  He is not a golf architect but loves the game and wants to do something in his retirement that helps the game.  Please note – KIC is NOT providing municipalities with money!  They WILL NOT for example, give a city council $250K to go out on their own and build new tees.  KIC will provide the work to get those tees built and gift the improvements to the community at no charge.  They will not do this without close interaction with the municipalty.  We don't just come in and start tearing things up!  Remember, KIC is a registered 501 ( c ) ( 3 ) charity that provides services not funds.

Wayne,
You obviously don’t get it (which is not surprising) and have nothing positive to add so PLEASE go work on your infamous but never seen “Flynn Book” which you have mentioned 10,000 times here before I publish one before you. 

Thanks again to those who have been sending IM's and emails.  I would prefer if all the communication is in that manner.  You would think this of all sites would embrace such a concept.  Sad to see some don't but it is the same usual few "the Merion/Flynn bunch"  ???

wsmorrison

Re: Make a difference with your recommendation
« Reply #39 on: August 31, 2008, 08:09:27 PM »
I get it, Mark.  This is a business model for a niche market with little competition from other golf architects.  I am sure it is an altruistic effort for Mr. Bergman, but for some of the other participants, forgive me for thinking it is little more than a marketing strategy with coincidental benefits for others.  You may not think I have anything positive to add, but I think I understand the scenario a lot better than you give me credit for.  I also think I did add some worthwhile contributions.  Whether or not they are positive or negative depends upon the perspective.  I think it is understandable, given the structure and the process that there are a lot of questions.  It isn't only the Merion Bickersons involved.

As for writing your own Flynn book, have at it.  Tom and I wrote a reference book with a mountain of material not available to everyone.  That is why it turned out to be 1700 pages.  You might be able to research and write a book before ours is completed.  I am quite certain the target market is completely different.  We will have ours privately published and if we sell 300 3-volume sets, I'll be pleasantly surprised.  So I doubt a book by you will hurt our efforts. 
« Last Edit: August 31, 2008, 08:15:46 PM by Wayne Morrison »

Thomas MacWood

Re: Make a difference with your recommendation
« Reply #40 on: August 31, 2008, 11:39:08 PM »
Mark
Are you sure Mr. Bergman is a trial lawyer. It was my impression he specializes in real estate law. How did you and Forrest become involved? Did you have relationship with Mr. Bergman prior to the enterprise being launched?

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Make a difference with your recommendation
« Reply #41 on: September 01, 2008, 07:20:07 AM »
Wayne,
You said,

“I get it, Mark.  This is a business model for a niche market with little competition from other golf architects.” 

I am not going to get into a long debate but you don’t get it.  You seem to see everything as “competitive”!  Try replacing that with the word “cooperative” and you might be amazed at what can be accomplished!  You might even get that book published if you embraced the help of others rather than think everyone is “competing” with you.  Forrest and I cooperate very well together and I am sure we will cooperate on projects with KIC with many others including various architects, contractors, …, whatever/whoever is needed to get the job done.  Maybe that is why Dan Bergman likes us!

Tom W,
I never met or heard of Dan Bergman until a dinner interview in Orlando this past January when Dan was searching out architectural support to help him.  I believe Forrest had met Dan for the first time a month or so earlier (I think it was someone from the National Golf Foundation who suggested Dan get introduced to Forrest.  I also know Dan had picked up a copy of our book and that might have triggered the call.  But either way, Forrest wanted Dan to meet me as well so the dinner was arranged during the Golf Industry Show.  I know Dan met and contacted numerous other architects - my guess is most were skeptical (as was I) that this guy/organization was for real.  He needed a lot of help to get his idea going.  Our dinner meeting went well.  Dan and his board wanted us to be involved.  Forrest and I discussed it and we agree to cooperate with KIC because it seemed like a great cause/opportunity if it all came together.  As it is turning out, Dan is really committed to make this happen and things are moving along.  We shall see.

wsmorrison

Re: Make a difference with your recommendation
« Reply #42 on: September 01, 2008, 07:35:04 AM »
Wayne,
You said,

“I get it, Mark.  This is a business model for a niche market with little competition from other golf architects.”

I am not going to get into a long debate but you don’t get it.  You seem to see everything as “competitive”!  Try replacing that with the word “cooperative” and you might be amazed at what can be accomplished!


OK, I will replace the word. 

I get it Mark.  This is a business model for a niche market with little cooperation from other golf architects.

Hmmm..... 

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Make a difference with your recommendation
« Reply #43 on: September 01, 2008, 08:29:49 AM »
Wayne,
You know what I mean but then again, maybe you don't  :(  You are missing the reason Dan founded Keep It Classic.  If you understand, maybe you should explain it to us so we all "get it". 

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Make a difference with your recommendation
« Reply #44 on: September 01, 2008, 07:59:08 PM »
Mark,

I've never played a Forrest Richardson designed or renovated/restored course and I know he participates here fairly regularly, but from his website, it seems almost all of his work to date is in desert climes in AZ and CA.

I'm also pretty sure I can't call his design style (at least from pictures) very classically inspired.



This picture is perhaps a bit over the top and not indicative of much of his work, but folks can see more of his original and renovation work at his website;

http://www.golfgroupltd.com/las_palomas.html

Has he ever been in charge of a project on clay based soils in the northeast?   I'm asking simply because I think it might take some particular agronomic knowledge to handle properly given the differences in climate, rainfall, drainage, grasses, etc., than the desert.

Also, what course would you point to as his greatest restoration work to date?

Again...I'm not looking to start another "Merion-style" debate, either, but we also all know that some architects are more sensitive/skilled/interested in true restoration, and we all saw that in the case of the first Merion debate on here, with the Tom Fazio "restoration" that turned out to be anything but, at least as far as the bunker project was concerned.

If some of us seem defensive, it's simply because we're looking for proof of concept on the ground, beyond a nice and generous and idealistic idea.

Thanks.

Am I the only one who has made the trek to Puerto Penasco to play the Links at Las Palomas?  It's hard to believe I know, but #11, pictured above, fits right into the landscape in the lower area of the course that plays around a couple of large lagoons.  The upper part of the course is a series of very classic linksy holes in the dunes.  It's as much fun as any new course I've played recently.

I've also played Forrest's very sympathetic restoration  of the Gold course at the Wigwam. 

Sometimes some of you guys are unbelievable, but what do I know............

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