The Mines Have It - DeVries in GR

[Adam Clayman]

Mike's work here illustrates how intelligent design can work on a difficult site. Creating separation and intimacy on the different four quadrants that comprise the whole. From wooded to sandy scrub, the course fits into it's surrounds naturally. Having Grampa Joe as a guide did not hurt the experience with him pointing out much of the subtlety and characteristics of how the ball would react to specific locations.

The rolling terrain accentuates what I'll call the Michigan look. However, Mike has created a course unlike any other I saw on my recent travels around the state.

Each green site appears to be the crux of the interest, but, that's only because the terrain is so varied movement becomes commonplace. In other words the movement of the land is significant and the greens are truly the faces.

The Mines is a fascinating study. Since the final hole I've been consumed with thoughts on exactly what I had just played. Anyone traveling trough the area and would like a lower cost higher value play, The Mines is a study of what Grampa Joe called "workings man" golf.

I know I liked it, thinking about why consumes my reasons.

[Brian Cenci]

It's a solid course.  Played it for first time earlier this year and I really enjoyed it.  Most public golfers in the area probably don't appreciate the cost per round value they get out of that course.  Even though it has the whole, "split by a road" setup the routing really felt complete.  As with all Devries courses (I've played 4, Kingsley, Greywalls, Mines & Pilgrims) and my home course which he worked on a few years ago, Walnut Hills, there's always a few shots I wished
I had over.  I was bitten on the 5th hole 2nd shot on the par 5.  The amount of landing area I though I had I overestimated and thus cursed the Devries name a few times.  Overall it is a solid course with a lot of topography and interest on the greens.  There is adequate chipping and landing areas as well that make the short game fun again.

One question, what's with all the weird wood statues though?

[Adam Clayman]

Brian, The artist is a friend of the owner. Likely a back scratching.  I'm glad they were not used as yardage posts. They were just randomly placed carved and painted animals, likely indigenous.

[Brian Cenci]

I thought they were pretty cool...very randomn.

[Peter Pallotta]

Adam -

I have to admit it makes me feel good that a more travelled golfer and experienced observer of gca (you) agreed with a much less travelled and experienced one (me). I enjoyed my one round at the Mines very much, and thought it a wonderful golf course (at any price). The course seemed to me the work of a 'mature' architect and of seasoned craftsmen, gents who weren't trying too hard or trying to impress. By that I mean, nothing seemed forced, it all seemed understated, i.e. the movement, the greens, the options, even the naturalness itself seemed just to BE there instead of having been of put there. And yet, it was at the same time an education in what golf course architecture is about.

Peter 

[Joe Hancock]

Adam,

It certainly was my pleasure to have played the Mines with you and JT. I like hearing the critiques, both positive and negative.

I also like hearing your thoughts as they form, both immediately and after a period of time. I hope that you will let me know if something strikes you in the future regarding the many facets of golf you experienced on your whirlwind tour.

Peter,

You are, as always, the consummate gentleman. However, to call Mike a "mature" architect disturbs me somehow. It's almost as if there could be a whole, naughty genre of internet websites that are preying upon people looking for the "mature architect" kind of thing....

Joe

[Peter Pallotta]

Joe - what's also sort of disturbing is that you didn't use an emoticon after that   You're messing with me head!

But yes, mature can have a niche market feel about it; but when I say mature you should think cool - sort of like west coast jazz, if it didn't take itself so seriously....

Peter

[Mike_DeVries]

The carved animals were done by one of the foresters that cleared the site -- he does it as a sideline and the owner wanted a few of them done.  They garner a lot of comments and, in general, people like them for their art, frivolity, or some other reason, but I have never heard a serious golfer say, "Yeah, aim for the bear on the hill" or similar.  My son definitely gets a kick out of them and wants to make sure he checks them all out, but he is 9, so not sure what that means. 

Does Jim T have anything to say about the course?  Would be interested in your comments, Jim.

Peter, thanks for the comments.  I will ignore Grandpa Joe's poor pun, as usual.   

Mike

[Jim Thompson]

Mike,

I have a ton to say about the Mines, but I know I have to say it very carefully or it will be taken the wrong way.(more my poor communication skills then the course - my, dare I say direct style, is at conflict with the level of thought the course has forced on me)  I'll try to clean up my thoughts and get them on in the next couple days.

Cheers!

JT

[Mike_DeVries]

Mike,

I have a ton to say about the Mines, but I know I have to say it very carefully or it will be taken the wrong way.(more my poor communication skills then the course - my, dare I say direct style, is at conflict with the level of thought the course has forced on me)  I'll try to clean up my thoughts and get them on in the next couple days.

Cheers!

JT

Jim,
No problem -- I want the full Jim!  If you don't want to air it on GCA, just give me a call.
Best always,
Mike

[Doug Sobieski]

Mike:

I hate to say it, but despite my promises I've still not gotten back up to GR with clubs in hand to play The Mines. I do still miss Pilgrims Run, though. If it were here in Columbus, I'd play a LOT more golf.

Sobe

[Brian Cenci]

Mike,

I have a ton to say about the Mines, but I know I have to say it very carefully or it will be taken the wrong way.(more my poor communication skills then the course - my, dare I say direct style, is at conflict with the level of thought the course has forced on me)  I'll try to clean up my thoughts and get them on in the next couple days.

Cheers!

JT

We're all ears Jim.  You'll be happy to know that your tradition of chasing geese off of golf holes has been carried on by myself and Dave.  More than a few times this year when of us will be in a cart and B-line right for a flock of them.  Every time we return the other one says, "nice work Thompson".  Hope all is well.

-Brian

[Adam Clayman]

Mike, While you're checking into this thread (and a search revealed nada) could you tell us all a little about what you did differently at the Mines from your other projects? What your concerns and focus were?
Really anything that would provide insight into what you think is special at the Mines?

[Mike_DeVries]

Mike, While you're checking into this thread (and a search revealed nada) could you tell us all a little about what you did differently at the Mines from your other projects? What your concerns and focus were?
Really anything that would provide insight into what you think is special at the Mines?

Well, first, we built the course in 5 mos., 1 week, (first tree cut to final seed on the ground) which is definitely faster than anything I have built before, so coordination of the project was critical.  We had a small but capable crew and the owner was highly involved day-to-day and had connections to get extra help with specialty work when we needed it, so that made the job very efficient, timewise.

Second, it is public and we wanted to make it walkable, but the property is divided into quadrants, separated by a road and large power line ROW that made it difficult to do so, as there were going to have to be some longer hauls from green to tee due to land configuration.  There are some shortcuts available for walkers, but I wish the property could be contiguous in order to make the walking easier. 

Third, the range is not adjacent to the clubhouse area due to the land configuration so there is a stand-alone ball machine and parking lot that allows use by those who only want to hit balls and not play.  The practice area will be improved in the future once the par 3 course is built and coordinated with the range, which will become a 2-ended driving range. 

Fourth, the public needs space to play so there is a lot of area that is maintained while we still kept some natural areas for the look, habitat, diversity, strategy, and due to some of the severity of some of the site.  It is right in the middle of Grand Rapids but feels much more like a course up north with the woods, views, and lack of housing near the course for most of the golf course.  There are some areas where it is fairly condensed but separation by trees, slope, or other features keeps it safe and comfortable.

Fifth, the rectalinearity (Is that a word?) of the quadrants made an E-W orientation the dominant hole direction -- so how do you create diversity in parallel, straight holes?  I tried to provide for movement and change by utilizing the variety in the terrain and by creating greens that would have pins that reward approaches from certain angles on the hole better (this really isn't any different from other work . . . ).  Jeff Mingay commented to me about the first 4 holes (4 par fours, all straight and parallel to one another) -- he was shocked at how different they all looked and played, yet right together.

Sixth, not as many bunkers (31 in all, plus 2 dunescapes on 5/9 and a waste/natural area on 8 ) -- just well-placed bunkers and effective, letting the natural rolling terrain be the main hazard.  There are 5 bunkerless holes on the course (1, 3, 4, 10, 18), if you count the dunes on 5 as a bunker.  Also, there are only 5 green complexes with more than 1 bunker close to the green (#6, 8, 9, 12, 15) but numerous areas with shaved turf, fall-offs, banks, or hillsides to provide interest.

Seventh, the greens should have plenty of interest and variety, both in contour and size.  This is not really different with regard to any project, as I think green complex interest is critical to long-term enjoyment of a course.  If they are bland, then the golfer will not be challenged to think about as many shots, as the green just becomes a ho-hum 2-putt most of the time, when I think they should have to address some difficulty here and there.  Size varies as to the site location and number of pins we can fit in -- some smaller areas might have flatter greens to accommodate play, but a tough, small green might be appropriate for the hole (#15) due to the shot coming in and agronomic strength.

Hope that helps answer questions and fosters more thoughts.

Best,
Mike

[Matt Dupre]

My wife and I had a chance to play The Mines in early August on a free afternoon during a whirlwind tour of West Michigan in-laws (sorry I didn't call Joe - my time was not my own  )

I was immediately struck by the feel of the property - rolling ground, very quiet, very intimate.  We found it a pretty easy walk - even the treks from  11 green to 12 tee and 17 green to 18 tee (though a shortcut through the fescue on the latter would probably be welcome).

The greens as a collection stood out - they were interesting to putt, but really caused me to look back to where my approach came from to see where I should have tried to hit it.  This type of variety is what I think will have people coming back on a regular basis.

The first four holes, while as different as can be on a parallel routing, seemed to be merely a precursor to the rest of the golf course, which offered a real variety - from the back-to-back (but completely different) short par 3s of 7 and 8, to real brutes in 13 and 16.  16 is a great hole - a looong uphill dogleg right.  The green, with just a bit of push-up, seemed perfect for a long, and in my case blind, approach.

I enjoyed the wood carvings, but I really thought the benches by the clubhouse were cool.

When back in GR, I would definitely make it a point to play it again.

[Mike_DeVries]

I was immediately struck by the feel of the property - rolling ground, very quiet, very intimate.  We found it a pretty easy walk - even the treks from  11 green to 12 tee and 17 green to 18 tee (though a shortcut through the fescue on the latter would probably be welcome).

Matt,

Thanks for the thoughts and critiques -- especially regarding the walk, as most ride there, so I don't get much input on the walking (Grandpa Joe says I make him walk to wear him out . . .).   

Mike

[Joe Hancock]

....a 76 today, and the 77 year old rater shot his age(and you said he'd kick my butt!). I won $6 w/ the big guy as my partner.

The greens were playing the best I've seen them, and the outer roughs are blooming with the bluestem now.... it was very fun to play today. I had some putts today that, pin position coupled with speed, were very adventurous.

Matt,

You have about one more apology before I come hunt ya down in Philly. The price you will pay will be to guide me around Rolling Green, plus strokes. 

One of the things about the property, and subsequently, the greensites.....there is a lot of movement to the land, therefore a lot of areas that move water. This helps explain why Mike sited the greens in the locations that he did. A recent play with Adam C. and Jim T. brought up the observation that most greens are "up". Here's the breakdown, to see if this bears out:

#1- The green is on a natural ridge(a turfed valley in front), but with a downhill approach shot
#2- Is benched into a sidehill, with a slight rise in the approach, downhill approach
#3- Uphill to a green sited on a ridge, fall-offs in all directions except the approach
#4- Uphill to a green on a ridge, falls off in front, right and right rear
#5- Downhill to a green on flatish grade
#6- Slightly uphill to a green on a ridge, falls off to the rear
#7- Benched in to a hill behind the green, small valley in front, green is a drop shot par 3
#8- Benched in to a hillside on the right, green nearly level with tee, another par 3
#9- Benched into a hill behind, uphill approach without much green visible (it is entirely visible from tee though)
#10- Slight grade up to green, but a small ridge in front hides the putting surface
#11- Downhill, bi-direction tees, par 3, green benched into sidehill/ hill behind
#12- Greens is close to natural grade on a slight incline above a swale
#13- Totally manufactured green sitting high above grade on left, right and rear
#14- AGPC (at grade potato chip), 'nough said.....
#15- Small, extreme, elevated green, par 3, 145 yards max
#16- Level w/ optimum LZ, at grade, back half slightly falling away
#17- Slightly uphill, green benched into sidehill left
#18- Downhill approach to green sited on abrupt ridge running front to back. Very abrupt fall off to the left

So, I guess it depends on where you approach from, and what your idea of "up" is. The greens are logical when you consider how the water moves across and beyond the property. I will say there is enough blindness to confound the first or second time player, as far as what to expect on the greens.

Joe

[Adam Clayman]

Mike, Joe, Thanks for all of that. 5 months is rather amazing.
 I'm officially on GCA overload (my brain hurts) with one day left to my trip. I hope Shel speaks very slowly. Today touring the South course with Jeff Goldman was most educational on many aspects of the process. You guys earn every penny.

[Peter Pallotta]

Matt - good post.

I found myself looking back from the greens too. Your mention of the back to back Par 3s reminds me of that stretch of holes where you can see 3/4 holes all together in one broad, open space. And that reminds me of how the course pulls off the neat trick of feeling intimate and expansive at the same time.

The course felt like it'd been there for a long time, and I think it will be regarded increasingly well as the years go by. I've only played one Stanley Thompson course, a 9 holer in Muskoka -- and I wasn't on the Mines but 5 minutes before i thought "Stanley Thompson"

And goodness, it's nice to see a course with so many bunkerless holes -- to my eye it looks wonderful

Peter

[Sean_A]

Gosh darn it.  I gotta stop trophy hunting and get my ass to The Mines and Angels Crossing the next time I am in Michigan - assuming ice and snow isn't covering the state.  Jeepers, I hate winter.

Ciao

[Brian Cenci]

Gosh darn it.  I gotta stop trophy hunting and get my ass to The Mines and Angels Crossing the next time I am in Michigan - assuming ice and snow isn't covering the state.  Jeepers, I hate winter.

Ciao

Sean,
     Give a shout if you head up our way.  A stop in Lansing to play Eagle Eye should definetly be apart of you SE Michigan mini-tour to Mines & Angel's.

-Brian

[Adam Clayman]

Pilgrims Run looked a bit more refined. The second green was an incredible sight.
 I hadn't left the area and knew only touring it was a mistake.

Diamond Springs was elegant. A lot less movement, but an very enjoyable round of golf can be had there.

One of my first impressions on this latest trip was a thought about minimalism. It was something along the lines of a thread topic titled "What does a bumpy cart ride mean to you?"
The Mines was smooth, however. Or was it Joe's driving?

[Joe Hancock]

Adam,

You were under the State of Michigan limits of mixing minimalism and cart golf.......smooth sailing!

Your comfort was my utmost priority......

Joe

[Steve Lang]

   was it a one or two glass of wine ride?

[Adam Clayman]

Steve is referring to our round at Black Forest where the ride to the clubhouse, after completion of the round, was easily a two glass of wine ride. Must've been a mile and a half, at least?

Sheryl was impressed with her hat and the IBG that comprises the logo of The Mines.