[wsmorrison]

You are something, Tom.  I'm not certain that Thomas designed Whitemarsh Valley.  If so, I doubt he did it on his own, being such a novice.  He probably needed some help from an expert.  I'm sure you'll come up with one.  I do know that Flynn did a lot of redesign work at WVCC after Ross, no matter who was/were the original designer(s). 

As for Flynn at Washington GCC (was that on another thread...it is hard to keep track of all these mistakes), an August 12, 1920 letter from Oakley to Alan Wilson mentions Flynn's work there.

"...Probably Hugh told you that Dr. McClenahan (chairman of the greens committee at WGCC) is in the throes of a big piece of construction work on the Washington Golf and Country Club course.  Hugh has helped out immensely with his suggestions, and Flynn is the architect in charge.
Yours very truly,
Agronomist

[Thomas MacWood]

Wayne
Which three courses was Toomey referring to?

[wsmorrison]

Three courses of action for Flynn to take with his collected thoughts on golf architecture:

(1)  Publish his thoughts on golf architecture in a book, like the others mentioned, for pay
(2)  Publish his thoughts on golf architecture in a magazine like American Golfer, for pay
(3)  Publish his thoughts on golf architecture in the Green Section Bulletin to benefit the cause of golf, fo no pay

Flynn chose the third course of action and these were published in the Green Section Bulletin.  I'm sure you have them.  There is a lot of correspondence in the files of the Green Section on these articles.  One of the more controversial items, left in after some deliberation, seems to be the notion of the USGA building and owning courses specifically for the major USGA events so that classic courses would not be altered to keep pace with improvements in the sport.  I'm sure Flynn was anxious to be one of the architects involved.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

No dog in this fight, but I MUST agree with Wayne's reading that he is talking about three course of action and not three golf courses.

Just as you bolded the letter to highlight your interpretation, I've noted the paragraph to highlight what I believe Wayne is stating. Look at the paragraph this way:

"Flynn has three courses open--       {FIRST COURSE} he can publish this book in book form and sell it the same as the others--      {SECOND COURSE} he can also run it in a series of twelve or twenty-four chapters and have it published by Grantland Rice in the American Golfer and be paid for it--      {THIRD COURSE}   or he can have the Bulletin run it in a series of articles and give it to them without cost which he is willing to do to help the cause along."

I honestly see no way to read this as three GOLF courses...

Sorry guys... I see that I was typing as Wayne was and he beat me to it!

[Thomas MacWood]

Wayne
I think you may be right - he wasn't referring to golf courses, but courses of action...as opposed to golf courses in action.

[John Kirk]

Well, we can invoke Leonard Pinth-Garnell again, but perhaps Emily Latella is more appropriate in this case.

[Dan Herrmann]

I think everybody is missing the most fascinating part of the letter:
"We hope Flynn can get by with his book without telling any lies, and also not do as Colt, McKenzie and Allison did when they wrote their book--all three got together after it was written and cut out all the meat so they would not give any trade secrets away.  I certainly expect Flynn to leave the meat in his book."

Is Toomey actually acusing Colt, McKenzie, and Allison of not telling the truth in their books?

[Thomas MacWood]

Dan
He is accusing George Thomas of exaggerating and C, M & A of watering down their book. 

[wsmorrison]

Dan,

You're right.  The focus of discussing this letter should be the larger issue about Toomey's view of how architects market themselves and do things for the good of the game.  I think Toomey was a bit harsh accusing some of these architects about lying.  Though there seems to be enough discrepencies in course lists published by architects that bring some practices into question.  I think Toomey was wrong about Thomas not doing any work on the East coast.  There is no doubt that in the early days golf course architecture was rarely documented to any extent let alone to the degree needed for proof.  The fact that there is a lack of documentary proof is problematic and is one reason one has to explore the clubs themselves and whatever human resources are available.  It is essential to work with the clubs themselves to amass the most material possible to derive educated assumptions.   Further, it is necessary to work as a team to avoid missteps and misinterpretations.

As for Thomas and courses on the east coast, while no drawings exist, there still may be some evidence to confirm or deny Thomas's work.  I'm not interested in doing it.  For now, I'm sure Thomas was involved in the design process of Whitemarsh Valley and Marion.  At least as in a similar manner Hood was involved in the design of Kittansett down the street from Marion GC. 

[Thomas MacWood]

Another interesting insight from the letter, Toomey's harsh treatment of Thomas shows the architects of Philadelphia apparently were not one big happy family.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Good stuff all around.

When I first read the excerpts, I figured Flynn was willing to give away his writings just for the wider circulation and thus, name recognition.  I didn't know about the possible USGA designs that he would naturally want.  Both would be motivations to forego book sales.  I am sure the modern authors here can attest that publishers payments would be dwarfed by one big commission.  And, he had to wonder if the market was tapped out for gca books, no?

While Toomey may have been harsh towards the others, I suspect since he was writing to the green section, part of his sales pitch would be that Flynn was in a unique position to offer more views on the agronomy and construction sides.  I think all the others pretty well laid out their gca philosophies, but were at least a little light in the tech issues, at least from my readings of the book.  So, Flynn was going to, IMHO, address the weaknesses of those other books.

[wsmorrison]

Another interesting insight from the letter, Toomey's harsh treatment of Thomas shows the architects of Philadelphia apparently were not one big happy family.

Toomey was not a golf course architect, but rather an engineer and partner in Toomey and Flynn, Contracting Engineers.

Jeff,

You make some excellent points.  But come on, couldn't Flynn be doing the project for the good of the game as well?   

[Jeff_Brauer]

Wayne,

Of course he could.  But I bet he was thinking that donating services or thoughts can have some marketing value.  As history shows, he did get established just a little later than some of the other GA guys, and had to be playing catch up to some degree, no?

[BCrosby]

Wayne -

Toomey also had an interest in Flynn's getting the USGA commission. So it makes sense that he would take some potshots at Thomas, Colt and others on "technical" issues. Just a bit of good ol' American negative marketing.

Interesting thread.

Bob

[Jeff_Brauer]

Another point of intersest is Toomey writing the letter, presumably as partner (or soon to be partner) of Flynn.  One can imagine Flynn right over his shoulder, telling him what to say, but of course, decorum of the day would preclude him from blowing his own horn, so he had someone else doing the writing.

Now, of course, we would take care of that ourselves!

[Michael Blake]

At least one person here has basic comprehension skills.

Thanks Wayne for clearing it up.

[TEPaul]

Don't forget, Toomey's letter was written to the Secretary of the USGA Green Section. There's no question at all that his letter was NOT intended for publication in the USGA's Green Section Bulletin for general consumption and consideration! That is another very important distinction to make when one tries TODAY to analyze what Toomey was trying to say and to whom! 

These USGA files leading up to the creation of the USGA's Green Section and some of the personal letters contained therein are some most interesting "takes" on who was doing what and when and who was thinking what and when. But many of them were not slated to be published publicly via the USGA Green Section Bulletin, that's for damned sure.

Some of these personal letters contain some pretty interesting opinions of some of the participants about certain people, not the least of which was C.B. Macdonald. In this vein, I consider some of these letters remarkably valuable to the historic understanding of this time and subject.

[Mike_Cirba]

I'd also add a few things;

Why the obvious attempt to denigrate the successes of the Philadelphia School, which was proven at places like Cobb's Creek and Pine Valley to work very successfully?

The year this was written was 1927;   almost all of the Philadelphia School design work happened between 1911-1924.

It's quite possible Toomey didn't know Thomas had worked on Marian and Whitemarsh Valley as those efforts were before 1910 and before Thomas went abroad to fight in WWI, before he came back and then moved to the west coast and began his design business for real.

Toomey was not an architect.

[TEPaul]

MikeC:

There is probably little question that a rather interesting dynamic had developed by the mid to late 1920s between professional architects and those who still did not charge anything for what they did (despite the so-called "Architect's Exemption" to the USGA's "Amateur Status" Rules and Regulations). The age of the so-called "amateur/sportsman" architect who seems to have been so interesting and so seminal to real quality golf architecture during a former time was basically over at that time (the mid to late 1920s) but a few of them remained and George Thomas happened to be one of them! The fact that he was massively independently wealthy may've had something to do with that! 

[Thomas MacWood]

Another interesting insight from the letter, Toomey's harsh treatment of Thomas shows the architects of Philadelphia apparently were not one big happy family.

Toomey was not a golf course architect, but rather an engineer and partner in Toomey and Flynn, Contracting Engineers.

Jeff,

You make some excellent points.  But come on, couldn't Flynn be doing the project for the good of the game as well?   

Toomey listed his profession as golf course architect.

[Thomas MacWood]

I'd also add a few things;

Why the obvious attempt to denigrate the successes of the Philadelphia School, which was proven at places like Cobb's Creek and Pine Valley to work very successfully?

The year this was written was 1927;   almost all of the Philadelphia School design work happened between 1911-1924.

It's quite possible Toomey didn't know Thomas had worked on Marian and Whitemarsh Valley as those efforts were before 1910 and before Thomas went abroad to fight in WWI, before he came back and then moved to the west coast and began his design business for real.

Toomey was not an architect.

Mike
Would you rather we ignore Toomey's criticism of Thomas?

Why do you believe Toomey wouldn't have knowledge of who did what in Philadelphia from 1911 to when ever?

Who are the members of the Philadelphia School...the term is thrown out a lot but it is unclear who was in and who was not?

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

I have no problem at all with Toomey's criticism of Thomas.

I am simply challenging your assertion and innuendo reading something into it when all of the early practitioners and collaborators had either died by 1927 or had gone their separate ways.

[wsmorrison]

Where did Toomey list his profession as golf course architect? 

[Thomas MacWood]

Mike
Based upon Toomey's criticism of Thomas I said it apparently was not all hugs and kisses for the so-called Philly School, at least for two of its members - Toomey and Thomas.

It is ironic you would accuse me of innuendo with the Philly School because 1) Toomey's letter is packed full of innuendo 2) the Philly School is a modern creation or insinuation

[Michael Dugger]

For starters, it's nice to see you all playing "relatively" nice.......

As a result, some pretty interesting information has come to light.

I took Toomey's unflattering comments about Thomas to be rooted in the Captain's relative inexperience.  No more, no less.....

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