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Scott Macpherson

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Great Short Par 5's under 500y
« on: August 18, 2008, 04:18:22 AM »
Well done everybody.

Collectively we have probably identified the best short par 3's and par 4's in the world. That only leaves one question... what are the world's best short par 5's. And to keep it interesting, the yardage limit is 500 yards.

eg.
7th @ St Georges Hill (476y)
1st @ Wentworth (473 y)
5th @ Swinley Forest (497y)
15th @ Swinley Forest (493y) 

NB- We identified more great short par 4 than short par 3's. I am wondering if there will be many great short par 5's remaining- or have they all be lengthened????

Scott

Matt_Cohn

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Re: Great Short Par 5's under 500y
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2008, 04:27:42 AM »
Trick question, anything under 500 yards is a par-4.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Short Par 5's under 500y
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2008, 04:39:22 AM »
Scott

I don't think either of Swinley's par 5s are great and I am not sure why some folks rate them so highly. 

Assuming the back tees again:

12 Worplesdon
3 Prestwick ?
18 Beau Desert
16 Pennard
10 Pennard ?
17 Pennard ??

I am really struggling to think of really good sub 500 par 5s.  I spose I think more in terms of reachable par 5s.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mike_Clayton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Short Par 5's under 500y
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2008, 04:44:16 AM »
4 west at Royal Melbourne - and it is probably the longest par five on the west course.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Great Short Par 5's under 500y
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2008, 07:58:34 AM »
The 3rd hole at Pacific Dunes turned out to be 499 yards when they measured it.  Just a coincidence, but one that made me smile.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Short Par 5's under 500y
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2008, 08:48:38 AM »
The 3rd hole at Pacific Dunes turned out to be 499 yards when they measured it.  Just a coincidence, but one that made me smile.

Are those 499 yards left of the center bunkers or right? It certainly makes a difference!  I guess right down the middle to the turning point.

Scott Macpherson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Short Par 5's under 500y
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2008, 08:49:29 AM »
Tom- that's a good hole. Well done.

Sean- That hole at Prestwick is a classic. Definitely worth a mention. I know what you mean about Swinley. As regards the 15th, it is hard to build a good up hill hole though, that the green there is interesting if nothing else!!!


scott

Jay Cox

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Re: Great Short Par 5's under 500y
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2008, 08:51:56 AM »
16 at Cape Breton Highlands

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Short Par 5's under 500y
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2008, 08:53:04 AM »
#13 at Augusta National was 465 yards for many years until lengthening a few years back.  Not sure what it measures today from the tips.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Short Par 5's under 500y
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2008, 09:22:15 AM »
Tom- that's a good hole. Well done.

Sean- That hole at Prestwick is a classic. Definitely worth a mention. I know what you mean about Swinley. As regards the 15th, it is hard to build a good up hill hole though, that the green there is interesting if nothing else!!!


scott

Scott

Giving it more thought, perhaps you are right about Swinley's 15th.  For some reason I can't get that hole as a par 4 out of my head.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Dan Boerger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Short Par 5's under 500y
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2008, 10:37:36 AM »

464 yard (an I think that's a stretch!) at Gulph Mills in suburban Philadelphia. Wish I had a pic ... a really terrific hole.
"Man should practice moderation in all things, including moderation."  Mark Twain

tlavin

Re: Great Short Par 5's under 500y
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2008, 10:49:13 AM »
The 17th at Prairie Dunes is the best in the U.S. in my estimation.

Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Short Par 5's under 500y
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2008, 10:54:46 AM »
Terry,

        The 17th at PD gets my vote also.

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Short Par 5's under 500y
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2008, 11:38:09 AM »

464 yard (an I think that's a stretch!) at Gulph Mills in suburban Philadelphia. Wish I had a pic ... a really terrific hole.

The 18th at GMGC is much shorter than that; I believe it tips out at 425.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Short Par 5's under 500y
« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2008, 11:51:49 AM »
Oh what a stupid I am!  How could I forget the 8th at Formby?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Short Par 5's under 500y
« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2008, 12:29:57 PM »
Portstewart #7

Tim Gerrish

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Re: Great Short Par 5's under 500y
« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2008, 12:57:52 PM »
#5 Cypress Point.  491 yds

#16 Butter Brook  524 yds..  Sorry I couldn't resist...

Anthony Fowler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Short Par 5's under 500y
« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2008, 12:57:59 PM »
I hate to try to crash the party, but I think this thread was ill-conceived from the start (more so than the other 2 threads).  I have made this type of argument before and have received mixed and lively responses. 

The par of the hole should not matter in any way whatsoever.  Par 5's under 500y is an arbitrary category of less interest than say holes between 475 and 500 yards.  Some of these holes will be easily reachable in 2 and others will not.  However, it doesn't really matter what the architects and owners of the courses happened to call the holes.  In my category (holes from 475-500y), I think the number of great holes that happen to be called "par 4's" dwarfs the number that happen to be called "par 5s".

Dan Boerger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Short Par 5's under 500y
« Reply #18 on: August 18, 2008, 01:12:20 PM »
SPDB -- I agree ... but this says differently ... http://www.gapgolf.org/clubs.asp?cmd=&cid=43
"Man should practice moderation in all things, including moderation."  Mark Twain

Wayne Wiggins, Jr.

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Short Par 5's under 500y
« Reply #19 on: August 18, 2008, 01:21:51 PM »
Scott

17 Pennard ??


Sean,

I agree with you about Pennard's par 5's, and in fact #17 was my favorite hole of the entire trip to Wales, which included rounds at Harlech, Conwy, Nefyn & District, and Royal Porthcawl among others

Bart Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Short Par 5's under 500y
« Reply #20 on: August 18, 2008, 01:32:18 PM »
I hate to try to crash the party, but I think this thread was ill-conceived from the start (more so than the other 2 threads).  I have made this type of argument before and have received mixed and lively responses. 

The par of the hole should not matter in any way whatsoever.  Par 5's under 500y is an arbitrary category of less interest than say holes between 475 and 500 yards.  Some of these holes will be easily reachable in 2 and others will not.  However, it doesn't really matter what the architects and owners of the courses happened to call the holes.  In my category (holes from 475-500y), I think the number of great holes that happen to be called "par 4's" dwarfs the number that happen to be called "par 5s".

Anthony,

I understand your argument but, funny thing, par 5 holes are often designed differently than par 4 holes.  It seems to me that a 480yd par 5 nearly always has some significant hazard in play if one wants to try to reach the green in two shots and those holes called par 4s of that lenghth rarely do.

So I think there is a difference between great par 4s and par 5s that are 475-500yds.




Number 11 at Grandfather Golf and Country Club is a really good short par 5.

Bart

Anthony Fowler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Short Par 5's under 500y
« Reply #21 on: August 18, 2008, 02:15:21 PM »
I hate to try to crash the party, but I think this thread was ill-conceived from the start (more so than the other 2 threads).  I have made this type of argument before and have received mixed and lively responses. 

The par of the hole should not matter in any way whatsoever.  Par 5's under 500y is an arbitrary category of less interest than say holes between 475 and 500 yards.  Some of these holes will be easily reachable in 2 and others will not.  However, it doesn't really matter what the architects and owners of the courses happened to call the holes.  In my category (holes from 475-500y), I think the number of great holes that happen to be called "par 4's" dwarfs the number that happen to be called "par 5s".

Anthony,

I understand your argument but, funny thing, par 5 holes are often designed differently than par 4 holes.  It seems to me that a 480yd par 5 nearly always has some significant hazard in play if one wants to try to reach the green in two shots and those holes called par 4s of that lenghth rarely do.

So I think there is a difference between great par 4s and par 5s that are 475-500yds.


Bart

Hi Bart,

You are correct that typically 480 par 4's and 480 par 5's often look different, but should this matter.  A good par 5 of this type should offer a reasonable chance of reaching in 2 and a good par 4 of this type will still have some challenge involved.  Why arbitrarily remove from discussion those holes that happen to be called par 4's?  Should the architect design holes with the par in mind? IMO, no.  He/she should just design good/interesting/fun holes. 

The 10th hole at Bethpage is a better/more challenging/more interesting hole than many of the holes being discussed on this thread.  There is no reason it should be removed from discussion here just because it happens to be called a par 4.  What about 5 at Merion, 15 at Oakmont, 5 at Pinehurst, 4 at Pacific Dunes, . . . aren't some of these 3 shot holes for the majority?


Bart Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Short Par 5's under 500y
« Reply #22 on: August 18, 2008, 03:23:30 PM »
Anthony:

I think the reality remains that you can discuss long par 4s and short par 5s seperately because, in the real world, they are designed differently.  Let's say you have a 480 yd hole that has a natural creek crossing in front of the greensite...Can you really call this a par 4?  Not for us average players...I agree that architects should make the hole the most interesting/best possible but the demands of the hole and strategy of play must be taken into account and therefore, par does matter some.  At least to my feeble brain.

Bart

Anthony Fowler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Short Par 5's under 500y
« Reply #23 on: August 18, 2008, 04:00:38 PM »
Hi Bart,

I don't know the tone of the "feeble brain" comment but I will assume and hope that this is still a friendly discussion.  Your view is certainly more popular than mine, but I will stand by mine wholeheartedly. 

Why do we even need to talk about par?  If the most interesting hole possible on a site is a 480 yard hole with the green place opposite a creek then that's the hole the architect should make.  Why do we have to call it a par ___?  Some players will reach the green in 2, some will need 3, and others will need 6.  For one thing, designing a hole around a specific par is a waste of time and energy because 50 years from now the hole will play completely differently.  100 years ago, Oakmont was considered a par 80 from ~6500 yds.  We wouldn't be talking about the course today if Fownes had designed each hole to play to a specific par, adding them all up to 72.

I agree that the demands of the hole and strategy must be taken into account.  However, the architect cannot get hung up on exact shot placements of golfers because there is so much variation among players and future distances and playing strategies are uncertain.   For this reason, any 480 hole should give the opportunity for good players to reach in 2 and still have some challenge involved.  The par is irrelevant.  Some 480 holes will be harder than others and have different strategic options but they do not need to be categorized into two distinct hole types, par 4 and par 5.

Anthony

Scott Macpherson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Short Par 5's under 500y
« Reply #24 on: August 18, 2008, 04:22:42 PM »
HI Anthony,

Thanks for taking part in the thread. You have definitely livened it up- if not taken it in a different direction...  :-\.

Let me start by saying that I would not say that the other two threads were 'ill conceived'. I hole under 150 yards is a par 3, and a hole under 330 yards is a par 4 (Do you know of any par 3's or 5's of 320 yards?).

So while I agree with your sentiments, and we argue with ourselves, colleagues,  fellow golfers and occasionally clients, than par is a hypothetical number, invented about 1891 to standardise courses and does not indeed matter ( the lowest score wins in match play and stroke play), it still exists.

And perhaps because we are still stuck with this old yard-stick, it is interesting to see how many great holes still remain that challenge us in getting from point A to point B, in 5 shots (well three shots and two putts). Nothing more was intended. So having said that...can you recommend a great par 5 of under 500 yards?

scott

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