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Scott Macpherson

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Great Par 4's less than 330 yards
« on: August 17, 2008, 04:57:03 AM »
In the thread on great short holes, Jeff Mingay wrote 'The downhill 13th at Sagebrush is barely 300 yards, par-4'. This is another group of really interesting holes.

But what are the best short par 4's under 330 yards?

10th @ Riviera (315y)
4th @ St Georges Hill (271y) 

What's your nomination...

scott

Mike_Clayton

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Re: Great Par 4's less than 330 yards
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2008, 05:15:55 AM »
In Australia

10 West Royal Melbourne.
4 Barnbougle
3 Royal Adelaide
15 Victoria
13 Portsea
1 Royal Melbourne East
12 Barnbougle
3 Kingston Heath.

I think Australia might have the best group of holes this length in the world - and every one of these holes is under 300 yards.
For some reason they were holes the architects working in Australia in the 1920s had a great affection for and they have always been seen as important parts of any course.

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Par 4's less than 330 yards
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2008, 05:24:57 AM »
Some of these belong in my special category of par-4s you can drive but that you can't reach in two.

13th at Franklin Hills, Mich.
15th at Fenway, N.Y.
  4th at Seawane, N.Y.
  5th at Boston GC, Mass.
  9th at Cypress Point, Cal.
  7th at Sand Hills, Neb.
  5th at Black Sheep, Ill.
12th at Chambers Bay, Wash.
  4th at Gozzer Ranch, Id.
17th at Stone Canyon, Az.
17th at Oakmont, Pa.
  1st at National Golf Links of America, N.Y.

I'd include 14th at Bandon Trails but it's not a great hole at all, just a short-par-4 with an elusive green
« Last Edit: August 19, 2008, 09:31:03 AM by Brad Klein »

Scott Macpherson

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Re: Great Par 4's less than 330 yards
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2008, 05:29:30 AM »
Mike,

Those two holes you nominated at Royal Melbourne, do they feature in the composite course?

scott

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Par 4's less than 330 yards
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2008, 06:45:40 AM »
You will get to see a great one at Ridgewood this week at the Barclay's. It's called Five and Dime. 290 yards, little sliver of a green that sits at the top of a steep rise. Hill continues high to the left of the green (You are dead if you miss it left above the hole) and falls off sharply to the right.

Fairway ends about 220 off the tee, then thick rough up the hill to the hole. The players can hit 5 or 6 iron, then half a wedge, or go for the green. Most will try for the green, but there will be some funny numbers here: some 2's but also some 6's.

Mike_Clayton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Par 4's less than 330 yards
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2008, 07:28:28 AM »
Scott,



10 West is 8 on the original Composite and 12 on the Presidents Cup course.

1 East is 3 on the original and 5 on the PC course

David_Madison

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Par 4's less than 330 yards
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2008, 07:33:27 AM »
Bill - At the Senior Open a few years ago, didn't Jack Nicklaus miss the green in regulation all four days on the Five and Dime hole?

#5 at Cuscowilla is another fantastic tiny par-4. 305 yards, easily drivable, and the quickest 5 on your scorecard without touching a bunker or even the rough.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Great Par 4's less than 330 yards
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2008, 08:14:51 AM »
Mike:

I see the 2nd and 14th at St. Andrews Beach don't make your list anymore -- are they really gone and forgotten so quickly?

Scott:

Crystal Downs has four great short 4's, two of which (the 15th and 17th) are under 330 yards.  I have never seen anybody drive either one of them, although Ian Baker-Finch did come close on 17.  That hole has actually gotten better now that a tree has been removed and players are more tempted to think about hitting driver ... even though I still pull out a 3-iron on the tee in most conditions.

Mike_Clayton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Par 4's less than 330 yards
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2008, 09:06:16 AM »
Tom,

I had forgotten. 2 especially would be in any list. I always thought 14 was more fun from the back tee that was never built because of the neighbours objections.
I have not seen the course for a couple of months.I had been shut for about a month when I jumped the fence by the maintenance shed and played a few holes. At this time of year nothing is growing so it would not need to much attention to keep it playable.
It was still in good condition but there is something spooky about playing an abandoned course.

 The talk of potential buyers had all gone very quite but we can only hope someone committed to the two courses takes it on.

Chip Gaskins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Par 4's less than 330 yards
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2008, 09:09:44 AM »
Pine Valley #8
Tobacco Road #5      
Ballyneal #7
Olympic Club #18
Merion #10
Barton Creek - Crenshaw #14
Bandon Trails #8
Augusta #3
Pinehurst #2 - #3

I can't believe I can't think of any in Ireland or Scotland...that' weird.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2008, 09:57:45 AM by Chip Gaskins »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Great Par 4's less than 330 yards
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2008, 09:43:00 AM »
Chip:

There used to be a few more of them in Scotland, before they started tacking extra tees onto such holes, particularly at St. Andrews.  I think the 12th on The Old Course still weighs in under 330, though.

Tim Bert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Par 4's less than 330 yards
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2008, 10:03:43 AM »
Some of these belong in my special category of par-4s you can drive but that you can't reach in two.

13th at Franklin Hills, Mich.
15th at Fenway, N.Y.
  4th at Seawane, N.Y.
  5th at Boston GC, Mass.
  9th at Cypress Point, Cal.
  7th at Sand Hills, Neb.
  5th at Black Sheep, Ill.
12th at Chambers Bay, Wash.
  4th at Gozzer Ranch, Id.
17th at Stone Canyon, Az.
17th at Oakmont, Pa.
  1st at National Golf Links of America, N.Y.

I'd include 14th at Pacific Trails but it's not a great hole at all, just a short-par-4 with an elusive green


Are you talking about Bandon Trails here? 

Do you put either the 6th or 16th at Pacific Dunes in this class?

Is there going to be a great par 4 under 330 at OMD?

Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Par 4's less than 330 yards
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2008, 10:37:06 AM »
There is but one......   

Riviera #10.


Jeff F.
#nowhitebelt

Tim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Par 4's less than 330 yards
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2008, 10:38:14 AM »
Chip - Hows about #6 at Kingsbarn or #16 at Prestwick?
Coasting is a downhill process

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Par 4's less than 330 yards
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2008, 10:50:29 AM »
There is but one......   

Riviera #10.


Jeff F.

Jeff, come on, I love the 10th at Riviera, but what about 9 at CPC?


 




"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Ian Andrew

Re: Great Par 4's less than 330 yards
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2008, 10:51:40 AM »
One hole that really caught my eye on my trip around Ireland was the short but demanding 14th at County Louth (or Baltray as some refer it) called “The Cup”. The hole is 332 yards from back tee.

The tee shot is from a high dune with the hole completely visible from the tee. While you have a clear option to lay the ball back for a full shot in, the dune that juts out at the corner of the dogleg invites a player to cut the dune leaving a short pitch shot into the green. Most players can’t resist such an obvious carry angle, even though the reward other than distance from the hole is so questionable.

The real test of the player comes at the green where Tom Simpson found a natural plateau. This plateau falls away in all directions meaning any marginal shot will fall into, at best chipping hollow, and a worst into wild fescue rough. Something I loved was his choice to leave the unconventional front mound short of the green. It completely throws off the depth perception making the green seem much closer and since it is covered in fescue, it also has a psychological impact .

The green is one of the finest in the game. It has a series of roll-offs around the outside leading a marginal ball away, but also a clever roll in the middle that makes the player have to be precise in order to have a makeable birdie putt. The green site has all the presence of the 8th at Pine Valley, but without a single bunker.

This photo was taken by Aiden Bradley - one of my favourite photos I have seen.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2008, 10:57:19 AM by Ian Andrew »

Tom Birkert

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Re: Great Par 4's less than 330 yards
« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2008, 10:59:28 AM »
Many have already been mentioned - Riviera, Cypress Point, Merion, NGLA.

Sunningdale Old 11. Driveable but you risk taking a double. Smallest green on the course - it's raised too - and a deep bunker to the left and a ditch to the right of the green.

It's probably the hardest green to hit in regulation on the course.

Bill_McBride

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Re: Great Par 4's less than 330 yards
« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2008, 11:07:38 AM »
Some of these belong in my special category of par-4s you can drive but that you can't reach in two.


Brad, please elaborate.  "....par-4s you can drive but ... can't reach in two."

 ??? ???

You mean there's no good lay up area, it's either all or nothing?

+++

On the list of great par 4s under 330 yards might be half the par 4s at Elie!  What fun that place is!

Scott Macpherson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Par 4's less than 330 yards
« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2008, 11:13:29 AM »
Ian, nice photo. Thanks. How similar is that hole to the 16th at Pacific Dunes? Anyone played them both?

Bill- what is the best short 4 at Elie in your opinion?

scott

Phil McDade

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Re: Great Par 4's less than 330 yards
« Reply #19 on: August 17, 2008, 11:18:25 AM »
Chip:

There used to be a few more of them in Scotland, before they started tacking extra tees onto such holes, particularly at St. Andrews.  I think the 12th on The Old Course still weighs in under 330, though.

Tom:

The Links Trust website lists the 12th at the Old Course at 316 (although that's to an overall length @ 6,721, much less than the Open set-up. I don't know that the R & A allows play on TOC from the tournament tees for daily play.)

Machrinahish has done exactly this -- the 6th (Balaclava) played for years as a 315 yd (from the tips) par 4 with an incredibly awkward tee shot, to a neat semi-punchbowl green fronted by two little pot bunkers. It's since been extended to 348 with new tees. The 18th at Machrihanish plays to 314, but it's the least distinguished hole on the course.

Others in Scotland:

Boat of Garten has several very good short par 4s; those under 330 include: the 10th, 271, a very good gambling par 4 that turns to the left, with a very sharp fall-off to the left in the rough, and a green that's only 25 yards deep fronted by two bunkers; the 14th, Spey, with an elevated tee alongside the rushing Spey River to a doglegging right fairway that's very tough to hold, and a very shallow green again fronted by two bunkers; and the fun 16th, Gully, 307 yards with a major depression some 200 yards from the tee. You can play short of the depression and leave a 7-iron or so to the green over the depression, play into the depression and have a totally blind 110-yd shot into the green, or try to carry the depression and leave a short pitch. A neat little bunkerless hole.

Crail Balcomie has three very fun short par 4s: the opening hole (321), a very sharp downhill tee shot with fairway bunkers right, mounding in front of the green, and a funky, L-shaped green that is quite shallow or quite narrow, depending on where the pin is placed; the 9th, a blind tee shot because most of the fairway and green lies below a ridge about 150 yards from the tee. The tee shot is made all the more awkward because of an ancient stone wall that runs alongside the right of the fairway and angles into the line of play, and features a deep but narrow green with several bunkers left; and the 15th, right alongside the sea, a gently doglegging right hole of 266 yds where the golfer has to fit a tee shot in between the beach left and several fairway bunkers right. Those steering away from the large and deep greenside bunker right will find a green that shrugs off shots left; a simple hole if played as a long-iron/pitch, but fun for those trying to drive the green.

Fraserburgh has a terrific 328 yd par 4, the 4th (Shelf), where a fairly simple tee shot leaves an exacting and tough uphill pitch to a small green with severe fall-offs all around; it plays as #3 in the stroke index of the course, a rarity perhaps for such a short hole.

Peterhead's 17th (316 yds) is quite fun, part of the course's very good back nine, with a tee set high in the dunes, at a diagonal to the fairway, and a tiny green set amid a smaller set of dunes.

The obscure and remote 9-hole Traigh on the western coast has two terrific short par 4s: #4, Jimmy's Choice, 257 yds, slightly doglegging right hole with a tee shot over a ridge to a green unseen from the tee; and #6, McEachen's Leap, 283 yds, doglegging left around junk and over the same ridgeline to a green tucked into a small dell-like setting.

The cult-ish Stonehaven, a Braid near Aberdeen, starts off with a 305 yd par 4, with a tee hard by the clubhouse, downhill straight out to the North Sea, with Hitler's Bunker awaiting tee shots tugged left, and a green that seems perched on the cliff's edge.


Brian Joines

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Re: Great Par 4's less than 330 yards
« Reply #20 on: August 17, 2008, 11:24:36 AM »
I'd throw #13 at Kingsley Club in the mix too.

Tim Bert

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Re: Great Par 4's less than 330 yards
« Reply #21 on: August 17, 2008, 11:59:58 AM »
Some of these belong in my special category of par-4s you can drive but that you can't reach in two.


Brad, please elaborate.  "....par-4s you can drive but ... can't reach in two."

 ??? ???

You mean there's no good lay up area, it's either all or nothing?

+++

On the list of great par 4s under 330 yards might be half the par 4s at Elie!  What fun that place is!

Another interpretation of that comment may be that it is not lacking in a lay-up area, but that the green is not receptive to approach shots even with a wedge in your hand and therefore could be considered very difficult to land on in two if you haven't in fact gone for it off the tee.


Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Par 4's less than 330 yards
« Reply #22 on: August 17, 2008, 12:13:06 PM »
Ian, nice photo. Thanks. How similar is that hole to the 16th at Pacific Dunes? Anyone played them both?

Bill- what is the best short 4 at Elie in your opinion?

scott

Scott, #2, #6, #10, #15 all tied for first!  I liked #7 too but probably because it's the first par 4 I've driven in 30 years.  ;D  256 yards straight up hill blind.  What a pleasant surprise to find my ball on the green 30 feet away, and what a bummer to 3 jack.

Wade Whitehead

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Re: Great Par 4's less than 330 yards
« Reply #23 on: August 17, 2008, 01:52:36 PM »
How about Pine Barrens #15?

It's the 1-2-3-4 hole (see http://www.worldwoods.com/fw/main/Hole_15_History-23.html), and I think it's well done.

WW

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Par 4's less than 330 yards
« Reply #24 on: August 17, 2008, 03:05:24 PM »
Ian, nice photo. Thanks. How similar is that hole to the 16th at Pacific Dunes? Anyone played them both?

Bill- what is the best short 4 at Elie in your opinion?

scott

I'm not Bill but for me it's the 6th.  Maybe driveable with an East wind (not the prevailing Westerly) but an uphill tee shot to a ridge, over which lies a minefield of fairway bunkers and hollows.  A sensible lay up leaves a pitch downhill to a green sloping away from you, with a wicked knob dividing the front left portion from the rest of the green.  Almost impossible to hit and hold this green in the usual fast and firm conditions, the trick is to judge how far short of the green to land your pitch.  Lots of birdies, lots of bogies.

I like the 5th loads too but from the white tees its about 360, so doesn't qualify.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

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