[TEPaul]

"Your posts make me want to create a GCAtlas get together for seniors and super seniors....and I wouldn't care if some of us don't bring clubs!"

Paulie:

We'll bring our clubs if you promise to wear your skirt--I'm sorry, I mean your kilt.

[TEPaul]

Eric:

Obviously golf depends on senior golfers who play all the time. That's not what I'm talking about though. I'm talking about people who could really "play a little" and when they get old and get lousy and how they handle it.

One of the first times the dilemma really got my attention was at the centennial Lesley Cup in 2005 at Garden City G.C. Since Bill Joe Patton's brother, Jim, and I seemed to be the only ones who still smoke cigarrettes, we were outside during a course in dinner having a butt and I asked him how Billy Joe was doing. He said he was doing fine. Then I asked him how his golf was and he said he quit and doesn't play anymore. I asked him how a player like that could just quit the game totally and Jim said when he asked him Billy Joe just said: "I've played enough golf in my life."

That sure did get me to thinking about something like this. 

[Peter Pallotta]

TE - fine thread.

I've never been good at doing this myself, but I think it's true, i.e. loss and change are like a bitter-tasting medicine - the only way it does you any good is if you drink it all down.

I took up golf late in life, about 10 years ago - I've never had the golfing heights, and so can't imagine those heights fading from view.

You can, though; you're experiencing it. And I'm thinking that, maybe if you keep on experiencing it and not ducking out for an easy answer (my specialty), something -  some new way - will emerge... though what that'll be or feel like might come as a surprise.

Me? I'm preparing myself to watch the heights of mediocrity fade from view, which is no great shakes either

Peter 

[Eric_Terhorst]

Eric:

 I'm talking about people who could really "play a little" and when they get old and get lousy and how they handle it.

Tom, I think whether you're a 12 who grows older and turns into a 25 or a scratch who turns into a 12, it doesn't matter, male golfers always want to continue living days of glory. 

The other day I hit a perfect knock-down 5-iron into the green on a windy, challenging par 5 and made par.  If it's a three wood in my hands ten years from now, and I make the same shot, I'd still enjoy it. 

[Peter Pallotta]

I just remembered a story I read about Jack Nicholson (the actor). I think it went something like this. A lady Jack had been dating broke up with him. Jack was moping around, and after a few days a friend went to see him in his dressing room. Jack was still very down. So his friend says, "Come on, Jack, let's go get drunk - forget about it". And Jack says, "I don't want to forget about it. I want to FEEL it".

And this from a guy who really had his share of winning!

Peter

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

A few weeks ago I went to play a course where I had arranged a game and upon arriving, was told by the pro that the two they had paired me with had unexpectedly cancelled that morning.

For a moment, I was disappointed at the prospect of playing alone on a beautiful morning in only the company of my caddie, but imagine my surprise when the pro said, "yes, I had you paired with Roger Waters and the drummer (Tony something?) from Pink Floyd, but they had something come up and just called a few minutes ago to cancel."

Well, in my worst impulses I imagined Waters in his "If you can't eat your meat, you CAN'T have any supper!" accent mumbling to himself, "they've set us up to play with some CIRBA twit from Golfclubatlas!   Let's go write a new fuck*ng album."

Not sure if I was relieved or disappointed by the news of their cancellation, I went home and read something that just reminded me of what you posted, Tom.   In a recent Rolling Stone interview, the following exchange took place;

Q - I heard you've been working on a rock-and-roll record?

A- I've written a bunch of songs.   When I discover what it's actually about I'll finish it and put it out for better or worse.  I just always seem so busy.   I have a new woman in my life.   I can't believe I'm sixty-one years old and my golf game is such shit.


After reading that exchange, I feel a sudden profound regret that one of the most potentially rewarding, interesting days and meetings in my life just whizzed by me like a close, potential head-on collision that never happened.

Life is amazing, and never what one expects.   So is golf

[TEPaul]

MikeC:

Pink Floyd?

Who is that? Should I know him? Have you introduced me to him at some point? Is he some guy you went to school with or whatever who's had the misfortune of developing semi-high blood pressure or something?

[Mike McGuire]

Tom -

I don't know how old you are but shooting your age always seemed to me a very cool thing to do.
Having it as a goal keeps you playing and staying in shape. Doing it again and again must never get old.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

If you need me to explain Pink Floyd to you, I can simply say that my brother passed out in the doorway of a Dunkin' Donuts after ordering an "Apple and SpLice donut", preceeded by an evening of Pink Floyd's "The Wall" played at volume 11, and too much marijuana.

Not that I was there or anything...

Elaborated, I'm sure it would have made a great nineteenth hole story, and perhaps later a song. 

[Eric Smith]

and for the ones who are younger and haven't gotten there what do you think you will do when that time comes as of course it inevitably will some day?

An excellent question Mr. Paul. 

I have no doubt whatsoever that I'll wish to continue to play when I get older.  Golf is and has been such a big part of my life. 30 years ago this summer my grandpa took me out to the course for the first time and we never looked back.  He taught me from age 9 that golf can be a game for life and he sure as hell was right as this past winter we played while on vacation in the DR. He's 88, played all 18 holes, and though he wouldn't admit it, I know it hurt him; his legs were pretty swollen at the end. He is a bit stubborn sometimes. He was a WWII Navy fighter pilot with the prerequisite ego. And he loves me with all his heart and our love for the game keeps us close, although he's in Alameda, California and I'm here in Tennessee.

The guy still goes to 'work' every day if only for a couple hours. He has been on staff at Chuck Corica Golf Complex there in Alameda for 20 something years. I don't think he receives a paycheck, but he has a name tag and the folks there treat him well and allow him to do a bit of rangering.  He takes his 7 iron along in the evenings when the course has emptied and hits a few shots. This is his connection. Most all of his friends are gone now. There's no more flyboy reunions. He still asks about my game.  Asks me when I'm going to take my girls out to the course.

I'm very much like him in this respect - what the hell would I do without golf?

[Bob_Huntley]

Tom,

I remember our few days at Sand Hills quite well. I saw you on the small practice area and watched you swinging with nonchalant ease, with quite the most languid swing I'd seen in a long time. When you  retreated to the farthest reaches of the property examining the architecture that was there and possibly scouting out a new course, I realized that your playing days were a thing of the past and that architecture was your new passion.

Speaking of your lady golfers I saw both Mike and Frank Souchak in their declining days tackling the game....they didn't seem to enjoy it.


Bob

[Patrick_Mucci]

....and what do you think you should do about it when you get lousy when you once could---as some say---"play a little"?

Practice more often

I love the game and playing it, I really do, or maybe I should say I really loved it but I started late and ended pretty early.

I don't get any joy and almost no motivation from playing lousy or the inevitablilty of it.

Then you're not setting goals for yourself.

Do I have to come down to Philly to smack you around to get you to "snap out of it ?"

I figure there can't be a better place than this to ask questions like this.

What have some of you done who've gotten to that point and for the ones who are younger and haven't gotten there what do you think you will do when that time comes as of course it inevitably will some day?

Golf is a game for the ages.
The handicap system will equalize your diminished scoring skills, allowing you to compete on an equal footing with anyone else.

But, let's forget about handicaps for a moment.

There's an inherent pleasure that comes from planning and executing shots.  But, executing becomes more difficult as we get older, hence, the need to practice and to hone our planning skills.

Create goals for yourself.

Two of mine have been to shoot under par every year and to shoot in the sixties every year.  Other than 2004 when I was having some physical problems, I"ve met those goals.  Once I meet them, my new goal is to repeat them.

I've added a goal, I'd now like to shoot my age.
I could have done it about six weeks ago, but I had5 to 6 putts rim out and a few others just miss.  I still finished 3 under from the back tees a GCGC.

Other goals include beating golfers who are better than me, without shots.
On Tuesday I accomplished that goal.

Play in tournaments like the Singles, be fiercely competitive in your mind and your body will follow.

Currently, I"m trying to hit the ball a little farther with my irons while shaping the shot in a high right to left trajectory.

Try to be a great bunker player,  up and downing it most of the time.

Work on the component pieces of your game vis a vis practice and on course challenges.

Learn NEW shots.

Come and play against me, Ran and others whom you delight in beating.

Giving up on golf is giving up on life.

If you couldn't hit the ball out of your own shadow you'd appreciate the game more, you'd strive to be better and you'd think your way around the golf course better.

Don't abandon the game, it's too much a part of your fabric, your life.

Re-embrace it.
Practice, play, practice, gamble, and practice some more.

You'll be surprised how much you start to enjoy the game when you pull off great shots and make great scores.

SNAP OUT OF IT.

Buy a new set of irons and woods, a new bag and get out and play.

Right after I have some surgery I'm coming down to Gulph Mills and getting you back into golf.  You can even invite Wayno to join us.

Never, Never, Never give up on the game.

If it didn't mean so much to me I'm sure it would be no dilemma at all and I wouldn't feel the need to ask a question like this. Somehow I think a passion for golf course architecture filled this void up to maybe a decade ago without me even realizing it. In a way I consider that to be sort of a beautiful thing.

Baloney, or Bologna.

That's a croc and a crutch.

Buy a new set of Taylor Burner Irons, a new driver and 3 wood and get out there and practice and play.

[Ash Towe]

This is just starting to happen to me.
However I've had a period when I could not play at all.
I found that some golf is better than no golf.  Lower standards can be ok but secretly I hate it.  The love of the environment never changes.  The joy of the company of my golf companions is constant.  The excitement of new and different courses/architecure still happens. The prospect of meeting more GCa'ers and a couple of more trips will keep me going for a while yet.

[RJ_Daley]

This whole thread has been a sort of serendipity or if I understand it right Dan Kelly, a Baader Meinhof or diegogarcity experience.  There are about a dozen circumstances or realizations mentioned in the above threads that have been part of my last week related to my golf and my current thinking, and keep coming back in the same general familiar context but in different people's revelations.

One difference however is I'm a golfer who started playing regularly at 38years old, never 'could play a little', and yet lately feel like I have been getting a little closer to a breakthrough towards getting better to at least a single digit handi, despite staring at 60 years old and failing physical ability. 

The main theme being;  I'm struggling with the concept or decison to hang it up or press forward, and is it worth it?  I must say, Mucci makes a powerful case to stick it out.

Last weekend I played Lawsonia with Adam Clayman who came to stay with me and visit a while.  Despite really barely finishing men's club day Thurs, with continuing back pain that isn't excruciating but wears you down when it is always present, including waking you every hour or so during trying to sleep.  But, I was determined to play Sat at Lawsonia with Adam.  I had to play my first round of the year in a cart which irks me.  Then, we meet a GCAer Cory Lewis by total happenstance as I described earlier in the week in the "almost pizzaman" post.  Then, while stinking it up some on the front 9 and missing a few short putts as usual, I make a few shots and start to hit it pretty good on the back, despite the pain rising.  All the while I'm seriously thinking this may be my last round of the year or for a while or whatever.  I even make a couple birdies...    The last hole we get on the par 5 in reg, Cory makes a great downhill breaker of about 25ft for a birdie.  I get this funny feeling of "well this might be it" and putt my birdie attempt, about a ~20fter up and breaking a little, and hit the cup dead on and it does the old, pop straight up, and just misses bouncing straight down and in, instead hangs on the back side.  In a way, it totally was a statement of my game.  But, it was a pretty good round for me and I at least beat my handi.  I also thought about the fact that we were playing on my departed Mom's birthday born 8-9-10 (similar to Dan's story of feeling proximity to his Mom, above).  But, it really was one of those days where you meet a fellow in a 1 in a million, share a great time with a good friend in Adam, and even go out for a great meal after. 

The next day, I take Adam to my home course, because I wanted him to see how good we have it.  Both of us are walking very poorly with chronic back problems, so we hobble around the course while the final day of our county am is underway and watch how it is playing.  We get back to the CH for a drink and I meet a lady I was aware of from seeing her name several years ago in the paper for shooting nice scores.  As we started chatting, she mentions she just shot her age.  I looked at her in a bit of disbelief and asked her what she shot, and she said 81.  I damn near choked, as she didn't look no where near 81 - maybe 68-70 which would really have been extraordinary if not the 81 being fantastic.  And, she was there rooting for her grandson who is a special olympian that I heard was on the golf channel in a feature piece that I think I saw a small part of.  He had shot 79 the previous day.  And, I'm thinking what a wuss I am, whining about my back. 

And, I read George Bahto's comments (who I played with on a rediculously hot humid day of about 95*-95% and he wore long pants and NO HAT on his dome!!!  Bob Huntley's comments, and TEPaul's along with Mucci's, and I'm thinking that while I wasn't up at the Sand Hills GC that time they are speaking of, I was on the same trip with all of them for the Wild Horse part of the outting, where they met my other "great" friend, Steve the Marine, who this year at 77 is actually hitting it further than last year off the tee, and improving from last year all around!

Here these guys all are older than me (some by 15+_ years  , Mucci went through hell, and they are all up and at 'em.  And, I'm wondering if I should start resigning myself to the ash heap... 

But, pain has a way of wearing you down.  I'm also in mind of one of our old friends from the earliest days of these golf chat forums, Patsy Johnson, who was a 'great' amatuer player, who is in the Carolina HOF and was a rules off and helped with the Ryder Cup at TOC if I'm not mistaken.  She had 8 back surgeries, and when we last met her at the first of our Internet gatherings at Pinehurst venues, TR and the like, she couldn't even stand the stress of putting.  So, she just watched.  So, I've been thinking of her lately.

Then, while Adam and I are talking to some of the guys, I find out that my regular 4some men's club player (Iron Jay) who has had umpteenine surgeries is in the hospital post hernia mesh surgury and it isn't going too well in the recouperation... But, I'd bet anything he will be back playing ASAP.  He was once in a coma for a month.  And, a few years ago, he had an intestinal operation with big cut surgury and was back playing in 8 weeks!  And, again I start questioning my manhood... 

I'm thinking in this thread how many of my friends there are on just this thread alone that I've had the pleasure to meet, all because of this little old cybercorner.  There are only 7 on this thread I haven't met, played golf with in the 4some, or within the overall outting.   And, one of them I feel I know as a 'paisan' that we are something of kindred spirits, just from the enjoyable e-mails-IMs we have exchanged.

So, I'm like that scene in the movie "Scent of Woman" where Pacino as LC Slade sings his little ditty, "did you ever think you had to go - but you really think you have to stay"? 

Oh, and please don't say I ought to have surgery to fix the back and keep enjoying the game... the fine health care rigged system in this country has foreclosed me by riders on my policy from the prospect of incurring that expense of that high of a bill...

A little for everyone on this post; Baader Meinhof, nostalgia about the GCA group, melancoly about getting older and thinking of not playing golf anymore... and of course the often despised for mucking up the purity of GCA.com "political statement"... 

[Bradley Anderson]

I think you'll figure out a way to enjoy every aspect of the game as you go through the various seasons of life. On the competitive side you may find yourself competing more with guys in your own age bracket. You'll figure it out, but not by necessity, rather because you love the game.

There may even emerge a teacher in you. You might start spending more time with junior golfers, neices, and nephews, or grandchildren etc.

I've been a golf course superintendent for going on 25 years now and the one thing that has surprised me the most from all of the millions of golf rounds that Ive observed is how rare it is to see a child or a young person on the golf course with a parent or a mentor.

To me some of the great champions of the game are the older people who take an interest in teaching a child how to play golf. When we move through the various seasons of life we should transition to mentoring at some point don't you think? Isn't it interesting that at the point in life where we loose the ability to do, we generally are gaining in all of the qualities that make for a good teacher, i.e. patience, wisdom, encouragement, time.

[Sean_A]

This is a good thread and someone highlighted one of my fundamental beliefs about the game.  Stick to matchplay and there is always a chance of winning.  Guys like Rihc will say this is a copout and insist that medal play is the truest and most challenging form of the game.  This may be true, but it doesn't make me happy.  Even so, I seem to have lost a bit of enthusiasm for the game these past few years and as such my game has gone in the tubes.  Whats worse is that when I am on the course I don't care.  Its such a strange feeling because I think you have to care somewhat to play decently.  Its sort of the reverse of most people.  I spose I have issues.

Ciao

[Dan Herrmann]

PS - Tom,  you're not that old

[Dan Herrmann]

Shivas - you['re right - Mr. Pat has some great lines in there that I'm personally going to take to heart.  Damn it - I'm going to break 80 today

[TEPaul]

"Tom -
I don't know how old you are but shooting your age always seemed to me a very cool thing to do.
Having it as a goal keeps you playing and staying in shape. Doing it again and again must never get old."


Do you realize I know a man where it is documented that he has shot his age over 3,000 times. That has to be so far out there as a world record it's scary!

[TEPaul]

Patrick:

You really are amazing that way. I don't think I've ever known anyone like you. If you really are looking for more distance, though, get rid of those old berrylium Pings of yours. They are great clubs but they don't go anywhere compared to what you can get today.

[TEPaul]

Patrick:

On the other hand, did you know that when Davis Love completely shocked the world of golf with his mind-boggling distance at the Walker Cup at Pine Valley in the 1980s he was using a set of berrylium Pings just like yours including that incredible 1 iron which is all he teed off with on the 4s and 5s?

But just remember you ain't got the swing speed Davis did or does. 


EricS:

Really fine post there your #36. God love your grandpa. Does he still chase the occassional "skirt" too?

[Bruce Leland]

Mr. Paul:

Reading your post about Glenna gave me chills!  Keep after it, enjoy the game that you have now and the yarns of past glories with your friends.  That's what friends and memories are for...I'm sure you've collected quite an assembly of both.

Bruce Leland

[Michael]

Looking down the barrel of 50, I relise I no longer can flex and twist like I could at 21 (or 31)...I can still put up some good numbers..as well as a melt down at any time

 My saving grace is... a 22 and 20 year old sons that both play well and are lying in wait to beat me...

 ...Keeps me on my toes....

[TEPaul]

Patrick:

On the other hand, did you know that when Davis Love completely shocked the world of golf with his mind-boggling distance at the Walker Cup at Pine Valley in the 1980s he was using a set of berrylium Pings just like yours including that incredible 1 iron which is all he teed off with on the 4s and 5s?

But just remember you ain't got the swing speed Davis did or does. 


EricS:

Really fine post there your #36. God love your grandpa. Does he still chase the occassional "skirt" too? If you haven't done it already, totally pick his brain about his days as a "flyboy". Some of those guys were truly amazing. Brokaw's title "The Greatest Generation" seems most appropriate to them and their early days in and around the war.


I got to tell you a story about an uncle of mine and his "flyboy" days in WW2.

He first went over there into the same bombing squadron as the famous "Memphis Belle" that, as most know (from the movie), was the first one to make it through a tour rotation. The "Belle" was just rotating out to huge acclaim when he got there.

That uncle of mine (now gone) was just one of those guys who, as we say, always found a way to "land on his feet" (to happen into the right place at the right time with the right people). He had a real knack of hanging out with the brass and he was really well connected.

He was a tail-gunner on one of those planes like the Memphis Belle. What were they, B-17s or something?

Anyway on one bombing mission over Germany his plane got completely shot to hell and they pulled out and tried to make it back to the English coast. It was at night and they basically threw everything in it except their parachutes out the windows to lighten it up.

Just as they hit the English coast they all bailed because they figured there was no way to land it. My uncle lands in a tree and he's hanging upside down but it was so dark he was afraid to release his chute because he he couldn't see the ground and he figured he might fall out of the tree and kill himself. So he proceeded to just go to sleep hanging upside down in the tree.

The next thing he knew he was being tapped on the shoulder and he woke up to find his head was about two feet from the ground. He'd landed in this big English estate and the lord of the manor and his family were there looking at him and tapping him on the shoulder. So they released him from his chute and took him into the manor and they all had some drinks and started reminiscing about some friends they had in common.

Those were the days, man. Those "flyboys" were something else.


And then when he finished his rotation he was going back across the Atlantic on this huge convoy and of course he found a way to get in there and pal around with the Admiral of the convoy on the flagship. They were playing cards and accross the intercom comes this message that an Ensign James W. Paul who was the gunnery officer on one of the DEs had gone overboard after three of his crewmen who got swept off the deck of the DE. The message was asking for permission for the convoy to slow up into the wind for the DE. The Admiral said something like: "Holy Shit, I'm gonna kill that ensign Paul for doing that."

My uncle did not even know that Ensign James W. Paul who was married to his first cousin was on that convoy. The admiral was so pissed off do you think my uncle admitted that he knew Ensign James W. Paul?

Of course not! 

[Peter Pallotta]

I keep coming back to this thread; so much good stuff. RJ - fine post, as always.

TE - a slightly different perspective, from someone you know well:

"Indeed, if golf architecture is to be what it should be, we must finally come to realize that golf is as much an aesthetic experience as it is one of skill."

"Hence, it is fundamental principle that we must search for; that basic principle of all which, in the degree it is apprehended, points the way to beauty and order, to the law of Nature. It is the consummation of this in design that alone can give to outward expression an inward meaning."

Peter

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