Fenway, Quaker Ridge and WF East

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

I stumbled upon a bunch of old photos of Ridgewood at about the time of Ryder Cup (1934?) and the bunkering was amazing. They had to be near the very top of Tillinghast's creative output. Sorry to here they've lost their pizzaz.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

From what I've seen in old photo, Winged Foot's bunkers were definitely not grass faced, but they also weren't quite as flashed as they are today, but very close.

They appeared to be flashed with a narrow irregular line of grass edging or facing along the top that sometimes widens to form soft capes. It is style seen at many of his courses in the 20's. I understand Dick Wilson did some work at Winged Foot which might account for the slight change.

[GeoffreyC]

Tom - I'd really like it if you could share/post those old photos of Ridgewood, Winged Foot and the Bethpage Black collection you have.

I think they would be very instructive of the variety of styles Tillinghast used at different sites.

I think the photos Ran has posted in his course profiles adequately shows the current state of Fenway, Winged Foot and Somerset Hills. It would be an interesting comparison.

Thanks

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ed Baker,

The 10th green at WFW was changed some time ago (last 30 years) and the bunkers may have been changed as well.
I believe the old 10th green might have been too steep and it was softened a bit.

Someone should be able to obtain pre and post photos for you

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick;

I'd certainly enjoy getting back there.  That five and dime hole owes me 15 cents!  The course is beautiful in the fall, one of the advantages of all those trees!

Tom MacWood;

I know the stuff you have on file rivals Paul Turner's incredible pictures he's been finding and posting here.  I join with Geoffrey in urging you to find a way to get it online to share with all of us.  Let us know if we can help in any way.

I'd love to see more of Ridgewood, Winged Foot, et.al. in their earliest days.  I know others would, as well.

Mark Fine;

Do you know what Steve's source about WF was?  Nothing against him certainly, but it runs against everything I've seen, and there aren't many better historians than Tom MacWood, who has seen similar evidence of mostly sand-flashed bunkers there.  

By the way, have you seen that the recent Links Magazine centerfold is our mutual favorite hole...the 5th at Lighthouse Sound in Maryland!  

It's the perfect "centerfold" for CCFAD golf;  stunningly beautiful, but unplayable.  Reminds me of....oh..nevermind.

[Mark_Fine]

Mike,
I'll be talking with Steve again and will ask him.  I did not see the Links Mag. article.  I'll have to grab a copy.  That 5th hole is as you say, unplayable in a crosswind which is probably 90% of the time.    
Mark

[Matt_Ward]

Just have to add my congrats to the efforts of all those involved with Fenway!

Yes, a few more trees should be taken down, however, when you add up all the merits that have been done to date you have a course that is truly shortchanged in its overall standing when compared to other Tillie courses.

Brad, to answer you question my list is below ...

(I do consider Bethpage / Black a Tillie layout, design, whatever)

1). Winged Foot / West (the best 2nd shot course I've played)
2). Bethpage / Black
3). Baltusrol / Lower
4). Winged Foot / East
4). Quaker Ridge (by a hair over #5)
5). Fenway
6). Ridgewood (E&W)
7). Baltusrol / Upper
. Somerset Hills

Honorable Mentions ...

Bethpage / Red (facility will make major move to upgrade to Black like quality and I'm looking forward to this layout getting its fair share of ink.

Brooklawn

Alpine (still needs plenty of work and tree removal)

Rockaway Hunting Club

Sleepy Hollow

*P.S. I'd also throw in the final five holes at Southward Ho in Bay Shore, LI. Play these holes into the usualy prevailing wind and you will be tested. Also, believe the long par-3 14th is one of Tillie's most sound designed par-3's, but gets very little recognition outside of those who frequent the club.

[Mark_Fine]

Matt,
I know we disagree on this a little bit but I'm telling you when they remove not just a few but several hundred more trees (as Gil also strongly recommended in his master plan) the true potential of Fenway will be realized.  

I understand this takes time but as it stands now, it does not make my personal Top 100 list.  With the trees gone (and I don't mean deforestation), it could move into my Top 50 and you know that's pretty good company as I've played a couple good ones.  

The potential is there.  I believe Brad Klein feels the same but you know he holds his opinions close to his vest  
Mark

[Matt_Ward]

Mark Fine:

Point taken.

One last item -- how would you assess the Tillie courses in the metro area? Can you post your listing?

Have a great holiday!