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brad_miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Fenway, Quaker Ridge and WF East
« on: July 01, 2002, 06:20:37 AM »
Most seen to consider WF West to be Tillies finest NY metro area course, but what is next best and why. Don't think Ridgewood makes the cut for consideration, Bethpage Black isn't pure Tillie any longer, and I don't know enough about Somerset Hills having not played it. Baltusrol may also be added to the list.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

corey miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fenway, Quaker Ridge and WF East
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2002, 07:20:14 AM »
Bethpage has not been changed to such a degree that is no longer a Tillinghast. do you like to call it a Tillinghast/Burbeck/RJones design better?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fenway, Quaker Ridge and WF East
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2002, 07:33:32 AM »
Not played Fenway but Quaker Ridge gets my vote followed by WFE and both B'rols.  I thought Ridgewood was pretty good the 1 time I played it, too.

Somerset Hills is a marvelously charming spot but lacks the "bigness" of his more ambitious projects.  Also, the 18th hole is a weak finisher IMO.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fenway, Quaker Ridge and WF East
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2002, 07:39:32 AM »
Finally played Fenway for the first time this weekend. Without question, the best set of pure Tillinghast greens in the country. Kudos to Gil Hanse and green chairman Steve Frankel for implementing such a putting surface restoration and undoing years of greens shrinkage, stupid contour mowing and other golf course homicides committed by architects who we no longer expect to know better. Now all they need to do is remove 200 trees. Great mix of long and short, left and right par-4s, esp.on the back nine.

Quaker Ridge has a very strong routing but the bunkers have lost some of their character over the years. I don't see much left in Ridgewood anymore, owing to years of too much alien intervention. Winged Foot is a fine shot-makers course, but just when they appeared to be making desparately needed progress on tree management/removal the club appears to have reversed themselves and committed to replanting again!

Somerset Hills has some of the best mounding, bunkering and fairway features to be found anymore. But Fenway's greens take the cake.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dave_Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fenway, Quaker Ridge and WF East
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2002, 07:50:57 AM »
Wing Foot East gets my vote.  Not a whole lot different from the West.  Different yes but right up there in terms of great courses.

Cheers
Dave
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Fenway, Quaker Ridge and WF East
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2002, 09:49:30 AM »
Brad mentioned the bunkering at Quaker Ridge and Ridgewood having "lost character" over the years, and that seems to be certainly apparent after seeing the fabulous Fenway bunker restoration by way of contrast.

The sad part is that both QR & Ridgewood have had bunker "restorations" in the past 15 years, which seems to be part of the problem.  

As far as the greens, I can't think of five courses I've played with a better, more interesting and varied set.  Now, if they get the chainsaw out, it's scary to think how good it could be and how overlooked it was for so many years.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Gene Greco

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fenway, Quaker Ridge and WF East
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2002, 07:53:23 PM »
Played Fenway this past weekend with Geoff C. and Dick Cessana in group behind Brad.

Indeed, this is in my opinion the "new" hidden gem in America. Great flow, great routing, masterful bunkering and, yes, the green complexes are as good as any Tillie had produced.

Steve Frankel and his committee deserve much kudos for recognizing and then refining the greatness which is Fenway.
This is an example of a golf course which all GCAers seek to discover. Remove some trees and it becomes top 50 in my mind.

Geoff C. put alot on the line dragging my butt up to Weschester from the Hamptons on a sunny beach day to play it - and it was more than worth it!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

GeoffreyC

Re: Fenway, Quaker Ridge and WF East
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2002, 08:09:45 PM »
Gosh Gene, I didn't realize the pressure I was under dragging your butt to play golf  :) I know a bit about your tastes in golf courses so I was actually pretty sure you would get a real kick out of playing there.

I loved Fenway about 12 years ago when I first played it and I was shocked at just how good it became after the loving care taken to restore it by Steve Frankel, Gil Hanse and Rodney Hine.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

corey miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fenway, Quaker Ridge and WF East
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2002, 08:16:48 PM »
Hmm, by carefully reading two threads i learn that Brad and Geoff C played fenway and rockaway back to back. tough weekend guys ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fenway, Quaker Ridge and WF East
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2002, 08:28:23 PM »
Clarification, Corey. I played Fenway this Satuday but have not been on Rockaway Hunting Club since Aug. 1997. Of course earlier in the week I was doing more "research" in Nebraska, but as good as Firethorn is (and I had to play ArborLinks GC as well), Fenway was more interesting.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

GeoffreyC

Re: Fenway, Quaker Ridge and WF East
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2002, 08:31:01 PM »
Corey- The Brad at Rockaway Hunting was your brother man!! No wonder your girlfriend didn't recognize Brad- she was looking for Klein.  :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

dick cesana

Re: Fenway, Quaker Ridge and WF East
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2002, 09:25:23 PM »
Brad is being kind when he mentions 200 trees.If this club got rid of 2000 trees  :Dalong with 2 dozen flower beds it would jump to the top fourty classic tracks. If you get a chance to play it DO
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Joe Andriole

Re: Fenway, Quaker Ridge and WF East
« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2002, 10:34:29 PM »
I spent several golf packed days at LI?Westchester several weeks ago including rounds at Winged Foot,QR, Fenway, Sleepy Hollow, Garden City, NGLA, Piping Rock and Atlantic. 36 holes a day-great weather and opportunity for comparison. I agree wholeheartedly with comments re. Fenway - after the first tee shot it was glorious.  The green complexes are superb, maybe not as difficult as WF but more varied and interesting and clearly superior to QR.  It might be the easiest of the 3 Tillinghast gems(though not according to my cards) but probably the most enjoyable.  I've been lead to believe that Tillie redid the course with specific instructions to equal/surpass the other 2 which were the top dogs in the neighborhood; I think he succeeded.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

GeoffreyC

Re: Fenway, Quaker Ridge and WF East
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2002, 06:29:52 AM »
Joe

I find the same deal with the card scores as you did.  Its NOT easy to put down a score at Fenway when playing the back tees.  Up one set and I break 80 but from the back the steady diet of 460 yarders, 440 yarders and a 245 yard par 3 mixed in with an uphill 200 yarder make for difficult pars. Then those devilish short holes can bite you too. I'm told that the scores at the local amateur tournament are 2-3 shots higher at Fenway then they are at Quaker Ridge.  Its no pushover for any class of player.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Ed_Baker

Re: Fenway, Quaker Ridge and WF East
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2002, 08:07:40 AM »
Joe:

Is L.I. not golfing valhalla? The number of GREAT courses is astounding. My Boston accent pegs me as a foreigner and I usually run out of money after two days, but I'm a gonna keep goin' back until I',ve played all of them.

Last trip I got beat up by Shinnecock in the morning, sunburned in Amagansett in the afternoon, and shitface in Montauk in the evening, what a great day!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Fenway, Quaker Ridge and WF East
« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2002, 10:37:16 AM »
Mike Cirba,

The membership at Ridgewood seems quite pleased with their bunkers.

I only play there about 6-12 times a year and would say that the bunkers do not detract in any way from the golf course, which, if played from the back tees is quite a test.

Ridgewood probably has the best set of Par 5's than any of the other AWT courses mentioned, and belongs in that company.

Ridgewood has recently removed a good number of trees, vastly improving the course.  More need to go.l

Ridgewood's primary concern should  be firm fast conditions.
Perhaps now that many trees have been removed, more sunlight and air circulation will help achieve those conditions, provided that "the will of the membership" desires them ???
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Fenway, Quaker Ridge and WF East
« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2002, 12:04:04 PM »
Patrick;

We completely agree that the bunkers at Ridgewood "do not detract in any way from the golf course".  I just find the majority of them pretty bland and characterless based on other Tillinghast courses I've seen.  

However, nothing against the particular members of any club, but I'm not sure I'd offer the general approval of "the membership" as evidence of any particular architectural validity, pro or con.  You and I both know the tremendous amount of architectural mistakes and general attrocities made to various courses over the years, often pushed and supported by an all too eager "membership".  

I'd much rather hear your experienced opinion.  

I also agree with all of your other points.  It's wonderful to hear that the club has decided to do tree management, which was getting out of hand.  Do you know if Gil Hanse is involved in the effort?  I had heard that he might be.

The par fives at Ridgewood are quite good, as you point out.  Whoever said that Tillinghast's achilles heel is par fives is quite mistaken, in my opinion.  

Have you played Fenway post-restoration?  I think you'd enjoy the third hole par five a great deal, and then we can also talk more about bunkers. :)
  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

GeoffreyC

Re: Fenway, Quaker Ridge and WF East
« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2002, 12:24:45 PM »
Gil Hanse is involved at Ridgewood.  I hope the membership gets enthusiastic enough to allow him to develop a full master plan.  I suggested to the member kinly hosting me that the green chairman and committee take a trip up to Fenway to see the possibilities for the bunkers and greens surrounds.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Ed_Baker

Re: Fenway, Quaker Ridge and WF East
« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2002, 12:26:45 PM »
Mike,

Can you elaborate on the bunkers?

One of my only "knocks" on my own clubs restoration which I played "maestro" too, is that EVERY bunker is grass faced with saucer shaped floors. Now the mounding, depth, and footprints have variety, and they are placed well, but I thought the finished product was a little "homogenized" or maybe antiseptic is a better word. The fairway bunkers in particular I thought would have benefited from different levels of sand flashing up the faces that would have created more variety to the escape/recovery shot options.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fenway, Quaker Ridge and WF East
« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2002, 01:18:43 PM »
Ed,
I'm not sure Tillinghast flashed as much sand as some of us think he did?  I'm told Winged Foot's bunkers were originally all grass faced.  Anyone here know for sure?
Mark
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Ed_Baker

Re: Fenway, Quaker Ridge and WF East
« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2002, 01:26:33 PM »
Mark,

That's surprising about Winged Foot, I played both courses last month and thought that the bunkers were perfect with several varieties of sand flash.

You mean that originally the Yawning pits on the Wests 10th were grassed all the way down?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Fenway, Quaker Ridge and WF East
« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2002, 02:05:22 PM »
Tillinghast wrote extensively about "showing sand" primarily to achieve better visibility, contrast, and aesthetics.

Have a look at any of the three Tillinghast books by Rick Wolffe, Stu Wolffe, and Bob Trebus for countless examples of Tillinghast's bunkering "styles", including some of Winged Foot.  

It bothers me that there is an effort to pigeonhole classic architects into certain styles that seem to fit whatever someone prefers.  For instance, in the case of Donald Ross, he designed ALL kinds of bunkers, as the pictures in "Golf Has Never Failed Me", or "Understanding Donald Ross" clearly illustrate.

These men were all site-specific, whether due to artistic creativity, differerent associates, or different crews.

In the case of Ross, not all or even most of his bunkers were the grass-faced ones that have become the steroptype today.  He did flashed sand bunkers, artistic bunkers (i.e. Seminole), grass faced bunkers, pot bunkers, reverse bunkers, ragged bunkers, clean-edged bunkers, and a whole variety that I fear is often overlooked by restoration architects.

The place to start with any restoration, I believe, is with old photos, particularly ground-level, if a club is fortunate enough to have them in their possession.  

Do we really believe that architects who provided the types of hole varieties and course varieties we've all experienced couldn't create anything but a single-dimensional bunker type??
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:07 PM by -1 »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fenway, Quaker Ridge and WF East
« Reply #22 on: July 02, 2002, 02:54:20 PM »
Mike,
Do you know what has changed over the years with the bunkers at Winged Foot?  I don't but would be curious to know!  My info. on WF came from Steve at Fenway?  

I tend to agree with you about varied bunkers, however, on most of the sites that the classic guys worked on (farmland) what is so site specific that would influence varied bunker styles?  Also, when you refer to varied crews, are you suggesting that when Tillinghast drew in a bunker on a design plan, he left it up to the construction crew to determine its look?  
Mark
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Fenway, Quaker Ridge and WF East
« Reply #23 on: July 02, 2002, 03:09:29 PM »
Mark,

I'm not sure what info Steve has about WF, but I'd be curious to know more myself.  Pics I've seen don't seem to indicate much different than what exists today.

As far as your question about how they were "site specific", how about Ross at Seminole vs the craggy sites of New England?  How about Tillie at SFGC vs the prairies of Texas vs the rocky underpinnings of Alpine?  How about Flynn's bunkering at Shinnecock or Indian River vs Lehigh or Cherry Hills or Cascades?

Tillie in particular, preached about integrating man-made features in a natural way, so that there were no seams showing.  These guys didn't just work from formula that they applied from one site to the next!

As far as construction crews, we all know that Tillie and Ross especially spent varying amounts of time onsite.  They left pretty detailed instructions in most cases, but sometimes they were "paper jobs".    

But, the fact remains that on their "biggest" jobs, they left a legacy of variety and site-specific architecture that is original, creatively unique, and anything but stereoptypical.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:07 PM by -1 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Fenway, Quaker Ridge and WF East
« Reply #24 on: July 02, 2002, 05:09:21 PM »
Mike Cirba & Geoff Childs,

Sadly, I understand that Ridgewood did not adopt Gil's plans in their entirety.

You would be amazed at where some of the resistance came from.

Mike, I think Ridgewood's bunkers, for the most part are terrific.  Could a few use some tweaking, sure.

What did disturb me was the tree planting taking place right next to the  spots where trees were removed, like on #5 of east.

Let me know if you and Geoff want to play it this fall, which is usually when the course is at its best.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »