[Peter Pallotta]

Jeff -

those fairway contours you describe more and more seem to me to be the key, especially when -- as I suggested in my post -- the architect and superintendent work hand in hand to maximize the playability (fun and/or challenge) of those fairways. Besides, to my eye those sidehills tilting left here and right there and the uphills and downhills look so pretty and natural, fabric draped over the land.

Peter 

[Tom_Doak]

Garland:

The 520 number was Kenneth's, not mine.  If you pick a yardage -- 470 was Pete Dye's 20 years ago, 500 seems to be the USGA's today -- whatever it is, it will be irrelevant 10-20 years down the road.

I'm thinking there have to be par-5's at varying lengths between 510 and 600 yards, so that every different player will be challenged at his long-iron length and his hybrid-length and his shouldn't-go-for-it length somewhere in that range.

[John Moore II]

520 yards was simply the number I threw out as the minimum length you could make a hole and expect the majority of elite tour players to have to hit a long iron or fairway wood into the green. 470 is somewhere in the range of mid length anymore, with 8 and 9 irons being used for approach shots.

[Jeff_Brauer]

JKM,

Yeah, that makes more sense!

Are you being serious or sarcastic? I'm certainly not explaining myself clearly, or so it seems to me. I have a concept in my head that I can't find the words to describe.

I was serious.

[John Moore II]

JKM,

Yeah, that makes more sense!

Are you being serious or sarcastic? I'm certainly not explaining myself clearly, or so it seems to me. I have a concept in my head that I can't find the words to describe.

I was serious.

At least you got it then. I am not sure if I would understand what I was saying if I wasn't writing it myself. My idea of a 'perfect' tournament course would be, as I've said, a course with Tobacco Road contours and angles, but about 7200-7300 yards. For those who have played both--Does Bulls Bay come close to this??

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick - good topic and good posts.  How about this, just to offer a different perspective:

I wouldn't spend any time designing a new course - I'd spend all my time getting a wonderful superintendant (say like the fellow at Huntington Valley) to spend all HIS time working his magic to bring a good modern course (take your pick) by a good living designer (take your pick) in line with its ideal maintenance meld...and then I'd let the pros go at it.

Peter,

While your superintendent would be well intentioned, Mother Nature would dictate whether or not you could strive for and come close to the ideal maintainance meld.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

Is it safe to say that added length isn't an effective impediment for the best golfers in the world ?

Wouldn't holes like the "postage stamp", the 12th at ANGC, the 7th at PB pose more of a scoring threat ?

But, if they're difficult for PGA Pros, they're infinitely more difficult for the membership.

Is it difficult to impossible to design a course that can accomodate both sets of golfers, PGA Tour Pros and a club's membership ?

Does the hockey - basketball analogy hold up ?

[John Moore II]

Patrick - good topic and good posts.  How about this, just to offer a different perspective:

I wouldn't spend any time designing a new course - I'd spend all my time getting a wonderful superintendant (say like the fellow at Huntington Valley) to spend all HIS time working his magic to bring a good modern course (take your pick) by a good living designer (take your pick) in line with its ideal maintenance meld...and then I'd let the pros go at it.

Peter,

While your superintendent would be well intentioned, Mother Nature would dictate whether or not you could strive for and come close to the ideal maintainance meld.

Pat--Wouldn't nature actually determine what the ideal maintenance meld would be? Meaning a course that is in an area that gets 100 inches of rainfall a year would likely not be able to play firm and fast no matter what the Super did, therefore, firm and fast would likely not be the ideal maintenance meld for that course. Are there places, not so much courses, but geographic areas in general, where firm and fast is not the most ideal?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat--Wouldn't nature actually determine what the ideal maintenance meld would be?

To a degree, yes

Meaning a course that is in an area that gets 100 inches of rainfall a year would likely not be able to play firm and fast no matter what the Super did, therefore, firm and fast would likely not be the ideal maintenance meld for that course.

Yes, but, that may be an extreme.

Course that don't get anywhere near that much rainfall don't necessarily achieve the ideal maintainance meld.

My point is that just being well intentioned doesn't always produce the desired results and that Mother Nature will have a significant say in the conditions of the playing surface.

A MAJOR venue can achieve the ideal maintainance meld, but, if it rains for 4 straight days prior to the start of the tournament, you can kiss those conditions goodbye.

Are there places, not so much courses, but geographic areas in general, where firm and fast is not the most ideal?


Southern Florida comes to mind, especially in the summer.

[/quote]

[John Moore II]

Pat--Wouldn't nature actually determine what the ideal maintenance meld would be?

To a degree, yes

Meaning a course that is in an area that gets 100 inches of rainfall a year would likely not be able to play firm and fast no matter what the Super did, therefore, firm and fast would likely not be the ideal maintenance meld for that course.

Yes, but, that may be an extreme.

Course that don't get anywhere near that much rainfall don't necessarily achieve the ideal maintainance meld.

My point is that just being well intentioned doesn't always produce the desired results and that Mother Nature will have a significant say in the conditions of the playing surface.

A MAJOR venue can achieve the ideal maintainance meld, but, if it rains for 4 straight days prior to the start of the tournament, you can kiss those conditions goodbye.

Are there places, not so much courses, but geographic areas in general, where firm and fast is not the most ideal?

Southern Florida comes to mind, especially in the summer.

Yes, I understand that many, MANY places do not ever get to what is the ideal maintenance meld. But what I was trying to say is that in many other places (and yes, I know 100 inches of rainfall is somewhat extreme, but speaking of South Florida, they may get the much) firm and fast won't be the ideal because due to natural rainfall amounts, it can't be done. Therefore, the ideal would be something more on the line of Soft and Fast (if thats really possible) or Soft and Slow.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JKM,

I think you're problem is that you and others context F&F as if it's a permanent playing condition.

It isn't.

F&F is possible in South Florida.
Seminole, Pine Tree and other courses are proof of that.

But, it's not a permanent condition.  It comes and goes.

The key is to aspire to achieve F&F whenever reasonably possible.

Sometimes you'll hit the mark, other times you won't, but, if the desire is there and the attempt is made, in general, you'll have optimal playing conditions to the extent that Mother Nature permits.

And I believe that that's all you can ask for.

[Garland Bayley]

Tom Doak,

Is it safe to say that added length isn't an effective impediment for the best golfers in the world ?
...

Isn't Torrey Pines pretty good evidence that added length is an impediment for the best golfers in the world? Just compare scores on the North and South courses for their annual PGA event.

It is perhaps not the best choice for an impediment. But, that is not what was asked.

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