[Patrick_Mucci]

a golf course intended to hold a Major ?

Would it be LONG ?

Would the fairways be NARROW ?

Would the rough be DIFFICULT ?

Would your course mimic the configuration of the Torrey Pines, Oakland Hills and Augusta ?

How would it be different ?

[John Moore II]

a golf course intended to hold a Major ?

Would it be LONG ?

Would the fairways be NARROW ?

Would the rough be DIFFICULT ?

Would your course mimic the configuration of the Torrey Pines, Oakland Hills and Augusta ?

How would it be different ?

Well, I actually get to think tonight. Yes, it would be long, a major course almost has to be. Somewhere in the 7300 yard range I suppose. I may have some fairways narrow, but I would make the greens large enough and severe enough to warrant width and force players to put the ball in certain places to have decent shots. Yes, the rough would be difficult, I would want it to be a half-stroke penalty. I would place bunkers in positions to force players to hit shots near the bunker in order to have the best angles into the green. I would want the course to resemble Augusta National from 8-10 years ago, wide, providing angles, but with greens that are slightly slower, but more severely sloped (on TV the Augusta greens look semi-flat, I've never played so I don't know for sure)
--Good example of what I want--Tobacco Road width and green contours with Pinehurst #2 length. That would be what I have in mind, somewhat.

[Greg Chambers]

what the hell is a half stroke penalty, anyway?  you can't write 4.5 on the scorecard

[John Moore II]

Greg-Welcome to the site, by the way, I note only 21 posts. A half stroke penalty basically means that over the course of a tournament, players hitting in the rough on a given hole will score 1/2 stroke higher, on average. The US Open this year had rough that was set up in such a way, and at the end of the week, players averaged nearly 1/2 shot higher out of the rough.
-Another way to say it, for every player that hits in the rough, 1 will make par, 1 will make bogey, more or less.

[cary lichtenstein]

I would like to see a Major played at 8000 at Barnbougle Dunes, it would need to be that length as the fairways are hard and firm, cut the greens at about 11 max, rough like straw, unwatered but very irregular.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JKM,

TV distorts depth perception, thus, the greens at Augusta seem flat to the viewer.

They are anything but flat.

Even the upper plateaus on # 13 and # 16 are unnervingly sloped.

# 12 may be the flattest green on the course.
It may be the only relatively flat green on the course.

In an interview, Rees Jones indicated that bunker placement now goes out to 330 yards.

I believe it's getting harder to design a golf course that challenges PGA Tour Pros while accomodating member play.

Oakland Hills sure LOOKED narrow

[John Moore II]

Pat--I think a way to design a course to be fair to members and challenge tour players is to first simply design a course that challenges the membership, but not excessively, put bunkers in here and there. Then go back and design some 'championship' tees back in the bushes somewhere in places that put the bunkers and angles into play for the tour players.
--I think Pinehurst #2 can be 'fair' not easy, mind you, for members and challenge the tour players. Like Tom Doak was saying, they need to bring back the width, mow the fairways right up to the bunkers, and bring in different playing angles for all players. With those greens at normal, daily firmness and speeds, it can be a great place for regular golfers, and for big events, just make the greens concrete hard and have them roll a 12-13. With greens that hard, you could have the width and still challenge. (Tom-I noticed part of what you were talking about with the width of the course when I looked at 18 from the green when I walked part of the course on Friday. The best playing line is probably 15-20 yards into the rough on the left side of the fairway)

[Patrick_Mucci]

JKM & Tom Doak,

How important would random bunkering, or random bunker patterns be, in offering a defense against the PGA Tour Pros while allowing members some leeway ?

Or, should there be several "paths of play" to the green, for membership play ?

[John Moore II]

JKM & Tom Doak,

How important would random bunkering, or random bunker patterns be, in offering a defense against the PGA Tour Pros while allowing members some leeway ?

Or, should there be several "paths of play" to the green, for membership play ?

Good question, let me think about it and I will post an answer tomororow morning

[Richard Hetzel]

I would do just the OPPOSITE, it would be shorter, say 6600 yards, with a TON of trouble to penalize the 300+ crowd, and the toughest greens ever, maybe tougher than #2.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I would do just the OPPOSITE, it would be shorter, say 6600 yards, with a TON of trouble and the toughest greens ever.

Rich,

How would that accomodate the membership ?

Wouldn't it be well, well beyond their ability to play and enjoy ?

[Bill_McBride]

Oakland Hills sure LOOKED narrow

I would have liked to see Oakland Hills wider so the ubiquitous fairway bunkers on BOTH sides of every fairway (a la RTJ) would be in the fairways.  The way it was set up, many balls hung up in the rough instead of feeding into the bunkers.

I absolutely abhor that look of the narrow fairway and the "fairway" bunkers set 5 yards inside the rough.

I think that set up would have made Oakland Hills even more difficult.

Comments?

[Pat Burke]

All I know, is that I would find a regularly windy (not absurd, but regular) site, firm greens and wind totally disrupt most of the players

[Richard Hetzel]

I would do just the OPPOSITE, it would be shorter, say 6600 yards, with a TON of trouble and the toughest greens ever.

Rich,

How would that accommodate the membership ?

Wouldn't it be well, well beyond their ability to play and enjoy ?

The hell with the membership! Only kidding, if private, the members wouldn't mind a tough course at all. The super could always slow the greens down a bit. I also would only offer 1 or maybe 2 sets of tees on a regular basis. In a perfect world, I would own it outright and anyone up to the challenge (and dress code) could play. I wouldn't be pressed to sell 50,000+ rounds a year either.

As my dear late father used to tell me as a young man Patrick, "Rich, life isn't fair. Get used to it"  Funny, the sport of golf isn't fair either!

[David Stamm]

Excellent thread, Pat. To answer your questions:

It would have sufficient length, maybe 6900 to 7200 yds., but not much more.

The fw's would require proper placement to gain the best angle into the green. However, I would not make them "narrow" in the sense that we have come to see at major set ups.

The rough, if any, would be just enough to cause uncertainty as to the outcome but not so much that the player has no choice but to "pitch out". So you could say that it would be difficult because the uncertainty of the outcome, but again, not difficult in the sense that we have come to know.

I'd lean towards a combo of ANGC and TP rather than OH.



My course would be about the proper angles coming into the greens and the greens offering a prime defense. I would use deception off the tee and none of this "it's all there in front of you"  type of design. I would use internal hazards when I can if they are in harmony with natural landforms and natural features. I would have extremely challenging greens, not because of the speed per se, but because of a good mix on greens that slope not only back to front but also front to back with imaginative internal contours with speeds not exceding 10.5. My bunkering would be artistic and natural looking but functional.

[Tim Gavrich]

Gimme 300 decent acres and I'll give it a shot.  If you supply the land and the manpower, I'll do it gratis.  I've always kinda dreamed of being the youngest guy to design a golf course that hosted a major.  Any takers?

But seriously, I would aim to make a more difficult version of Shelter Harbor (yeah, I loved that golf course), which had:

- Outrageously interesting greens offering both creative opportunities and nightmare potential if you put the ball on the wrong side of the hole.
- A wide range of green sizes, to challenge both the great ball-strikers and the great putters.
- Bunkers that are true hazards.
- A smattering of half-par holes on either end of the spectrum...risk-reward and all that.  I'd want a finishing hole that is as tough at 18 at OHCC was this week.
- Some water on the back nine.  OHCC's #16 was thrilling today.

[Sean_A]

The essence of the course would be variety (in all aspects) and a reliance on the terrain to create much of the challenge.  Weather would be the prime suspect so far as scores are concerned - as it should be.  In other words, I wouldn't change a thing for a major.  A good course is not defined as such by who will be playing it.  As it should, the weather would go a long way to determining how difficult the course plays.

Ciao

[John Moore II]

JKM & Tom Doak,

How important would random bunkering, or random bunker patterns be, in offering a defense against the PGA Tour Pros while allowing members some leeway ?

Or, should there be several "paths of play" to the green, for membership play ?

Perhaps I am not certain by what you mean by random bunkers, but based on what I am thinking it means, so, I would not use random bunkers. I would have bunkers that are well placed on the given angles to cause the players to hit precise shots. And I think you need to have several paths, thats why I would advocate having width.

The more I think about this topic, the more I like Tobacco Road with its width and options (even the 15th hole that the Esteemed Mr. Doak does not care for). I would really enjoy that exact layout with about 800 more yards of distance and a some trees cut down. Don't change the green contours at all.

But I think whatever bunkers are on the course need to be placed in certain spots for a reason, they need to serve an exact stragegic purpose.

[Jason Topp]

Par 3's

A couple of short par threes of 150 or less without water hazards but to difficult greens.  (Barnbougle 7 and Pebble Beach 7 perhaps).  A 200 yard par three (redan) and a big par three playing around 275 (8 Oakmont).

Par 4's (4225)

A couple of short driveable ones (10 RMW, 12 Old Course)

A couple that cannot be driven but driver can yield a short pitch (3 Augusta, 6 Hazeltine)

A couple real long ones (490-510) - 18 Oakmont,  18 Muirfield

A couple relatively long ones (450-490) which can be shortened with agressive tee shot  (Road hole lengthened without a chastity belt of rough)(10 Augusta - no rough);

A cape hole (16 Hazeltine)

A blind hole (Klondyke played as a par 4).


Par 5's  (2225 yards)

13 Augusta
18 Pebble Beach
7 Pine Valley
16 Sand Hills


Maintenence - firm, fast, inconsistent, wispy tall dry rough.  Fairways 35 yards or so.

Result - approximately 7200 yards par 72.  I imagine the winning score would be low without wind but I bet it would be entertaining. 

[Steve Kline]

Have a course designed well enough that the pros have to play from four different tee boxes on each hole. That way they play from a different spot on each hole each day. That seemed to really confuse them when the tee was moved up at TP and they semi-knew it was coming. It would have lots of width, the appearance of random bunkers, green contours that make playing angles necessary and a windy site. The key though is unpredictability in the setup of the hole. That at least makes for more entertaining viewing. Your initial post didn't indicate it had to be a course for members or practical for daily play or cost efficient.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Steve Kline,

I wasn't suggesting designing a course that would be taken out of mothballs for use as a Major once every 10 years.

The challenge is to create a course that enables the membership to enjoy and afford it on a daily basis, while providing a test for the best golfers in the world.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Assuming we're talking about the lower form of golf, ie nonlinks golf, the answers lie out there at Chambers Bay, Quail Hollow, Royal Melbourne, Pinehurst #2, and Winged Foot:
*Length sure but angles especially
*Selective bunkering, ie to protect angles yet offer safe routes away from them
*Deep greenside bunkers (assuming there is a way to play away from them yet still make par or par and a half
*Big undulating and / or sloping greens, with lots of pinnability around the edges (greens of sufficient size may allow bunkering on both sides of green, provided front has an opening)
*Sparing use of water and then only laterally, as with bunkering allowing a safe route away and demanding no long carries

To convert from everyday play to a major, grow the rough a bit longer (if you must use rough - but don't narrow, rather shave right down to the bunkers), move the tees back and shine up the greens.

Where do I claim my prize?

[Adam Sherer]

You have to keep the length, thats a given.

But, there's one hazard that isn't talked about nearly enough in regards to testing the pros and their 300+ yard drives, and that's uneven fairway lies in their landing zone.   

If you have a left to right slope with the ball well below your feet and a green that tilts from the left to the right, a pro has to control the slice lie and even over-compensate with some draw (over aim well left) to hold the tilted green. Hopefully everyone follows that example.  Force the pros to hit shots with perfectly controlled trajectory and spin control.

[David_Madison]

I'd design Sebonack or The Ocean Course. Wide with lots of angles. Elastic length combined with meaningful wind from any direction provides infinite looks, different strategies and shotmaking challenge on any given hole day to day. External and internal hazards providing all kinds of risk/reward opportunities. Greens going in all different directions adding to the shotmaking variety and short game demands. Scoring spreads on each hole should be wide, making for interesting competitive pressures and spectator enjoyment.

[Patrick_Mucci]

You have to keep the length, thats a given.

But, there's one hazard that isn't talked about nearly enough in regards to testing the pros and their 300+ yard drives, and that's uneven fairway lies in their landing zone.   

Adam,

Those lies will frustrate the members long before they'll frustrate the best players in the world.

If you have a left to right slope with the ball well below your feet and a green that tilts from the left to the right, a pro has to control the slice lie and even over-compensate with some draw (over aim well left) to hold the tilted green. Hopefully everyone follows that example.  Force the pros to hit shots with perfectly controlled trajectory and spin control.

How many golfers would join a billy goat course ?

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