[archie_struthers]

 


In reading an earlier thread TEPaul  allude to a triangulation theory and  Mr Flynn,  arguably the best of teh Philadelphia School !  Being a Philly resident I've noticed many of his green designs  (Woodcrest...Philly CC Lehigh  etc etc)  are diamond shaped or inverted triangles ...could there be a mystical reasoning to this phenomena or was it strictly formulaic design

[archie_struthers]

 

Not too good a thread if I'm replying to my own...was only a little tongue in cheek asking about Flynn's being abducted by aliens...but you never

In that we have some serious Philadelphia School experts here on site, I was sure we'd get some bites on my query.

I'll ask the question differently and with more repect....does anyone here know if William Flynn, one of the preminent architects of his time, had a mathmatical bent or a particular love of geometry. 

[wsmorrison]

Archie,

I'll ask Flynn's daughter.  I do know that he was fascinated by the work of Frederick W. Taylor dealing with time management and work efficiency.  Flynn was able to break down the cost of construction of a green, bunker, fairway, etc according to the job and the time required to do the job.  He may have been more right-brained than left-brained given how he could walk a site and get a preliminary routing done so quickly...thinking in holistic terms rather than analytical terms.  But he did show a clear ability to think analytically as well.   Geist, Rockefeller and others were keen on Flynn's ability to design and build within the estimated budget.  His techniques, likely derived from Taylor directly, were a value add that was found to be most compelling.

[Dan Herrmann]

Taylorism?  I never thought I'd see Taylorism brought up on GCA.com!

[TEPaul]

"In reading an earlier thread TEPaul  allude to a triangulation theory and  Mr Flynn,  arguably the best of teh Philadelphia School !  Being a Philly resident I've noticed many of his green designs  (Woodcrest...Philly CC Lehigh  etc etc)  are diamond shaped or inverted triangles ...could there be a mystical reasoning to this phenomena or was it strictly formulaic design."


With his green shape design I think William Flynn was into the mystical potato chip.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Archie,

I think Flynn took the double reverse loop theory and modified it to his triangulation theory where the land permitted/dictated it.

It's certainly a clever concept.

I wonder if the concept works best on sites with prevailing winds or with sites with more random winds ?

[Kyle Harris]

Archie,

I think Flynn took the double reverse loop theory and modified it to his triangulation theory where the land permitted/dictated it.

It's certainly a clever concept.

I wonder if the concept works best on sites with prevailing winds or with sites with more random winds ?

This explains why balls putted off the edge of the 6th green at Huntingdon Valley appear on the other side.

[Charles Scalzott]

Archie,

I think Flynn took the double reverse loop theory and modified it to his triangulation theory where the land permitted/dictated it.

It's certainly a clever concept.

I wonder if the concept works best on sites with prevailing winds or with sites with more random winds ?

This explains why balls putted off the edge of the 6th green at Huntingdon Valley appear on the other side.

Haha - quantum teleportation and golf course design...the next frontier in hazard creation.

I wish balls hit out of bounds would teleport back to the tee...the walk of shame after looking for 5 minutes and having to return to the tee with the next group waiting gives me golfmares!

[Dan Herrmann]

Seriously though - I think triangulation is a great concept that deserves some study.

[archie_struthers]

 


You guys can snicker all you want ....I'm quite sure that some alien influence occurred around Philly ....haven't you seen the crop circles at the Ardrossan property

[TEPaul]

ARCHIE:

You are aware, aren't you that flying was one of Flynn's greatest loves? His daughter said if given the opportunity he would go up in anything. Things like golf architectural triangulation, alien crop circles and close encounters of the "Philadelphia Syndrome" kind are best designed and experienced from the air.

[Peter Pallotta]

There was a thread on this a while back, but I can't remember the details. Did triangulation have its hour in the sun and then fall out of fashion/use? Was there a distinct Before Triangulation period? if so, why did it start and why did it end?

Thanks
Peter

[TEPaul]

"There was a thread on this a while back, but I can't remember the details. Did triangulation have its hour in the sun and then fall out of fashion/use? Was there a distinct Before Triangulation period? if so, why did it start and why did it end?"


Peter:

Definitely, there was a "before triangulation" period---eg basically most of all golf architectural routing that came before it. It was called "parallelism" and it became increasing unpopular for a number of reasons.

Basic triangulation in routing can solve that. The only problem (if you want to call it a problem) is triangulation in routing takes up quite a bit more real estate and acreage than parallelism of the old fashioned variety did.

[Thomas MacWood]

Peter
I don't know who was the first to develop the idea, but the earliest mention I've seen was an article in 1913 by Darwin detailing Tom Simpson's triangular system.

[wsmorrison]

Archie,

Sorry, but you are mistaken.  According to the world's greatest living golf architecture history researcher, Flynn was merely a draftsman executing the plans of others.   Because of Mortimer Snerd's courageous research and the inspiring sacrifices made by Tom MacWood (AKA Puppet Master) we would continue to be deceived that Flynn was an architect at all, let alone an outstanding one.  According to Mortimer Snerd, the only close encounters Flynn had was not with aliens but with Barker, Macdonald and Whigham.  I was wrong to assume that Flynn's architectural drawings had any real meaning, even when board minutes, contracts, owners and board members detail exactly what Flynn did.  They sure fooled us, didn't they?  Thankfully we have the dynamic duo of Mortimer Snerd and Tom MacWood to safeguard our understanding.  Hmmm, that grape kool-ade tastes great!

[Thomas MacWood]

Dr. Katz needs to make a house call.

[wsmorrison]

Tom,

Get under the pyramid and drink some kool-ade.  You made a great batch.  Drink up and all will be well 

[Peter Pallotta]

Tom and Tom - thanks.

Was the 'birth' of triangulation roughly co-incident with the move inland and to inland/parkland courses in the UK, and away from the limits/constraints on size imposed by the linksland?

If so, am I right in saying that in America it would be quite a few years later before the designers of America's inland/parkland courses started following suit, and started using triangulation? (I can't think of many courses from the 10s and 20s that were routed that way...but I may be missing a lot).

And if that's right, why would that be? Was it just economics, i.e. land was expensive even back then, and so smallish parcels tended to be purchased that didn't allow for triangulation? or was it just a natrual lag-time between what Simpson was doing in say 1913 and until that approach could become widespread?

Thanks
Peter

[archie_struthers]

 

I'm not asking about routing but specifically about  Flynn's green designs. I'm thinking of #18 at Philly Coutry Club....#9 at Lehigh .... #'s 2, 6 and perhaps even 10 at Indian Creek plys many more.

What stacking the "triangles"  does is make the shots to the green require tremendous distance control ,  and make pin hunting extremely dangerous at times....from a more practical angle (lol)  it makes "dead zones" where you can't putt from point a to b a relative impossiblility....

Perhaps a review of aerials of Flynns' greens will yield even more of these "diamonds"

[TEPaul]

ARCHIE:

Actually, #18 green at Philly Country isn't Flynn it's Flynn's backup William Gordon.

[DMoriarty]

Archie,

Sorry, but you are mistaken.  According to the world's greatest living golf architecture history researcher, Flynn was merely a draftsman executing the plans of others.   Because of Mortimer Snerd's courageous research and the inspiring sacrifices made by Tom MacWood (AKA Puppet Master) we would continue to be deceived that Flynn was an architect at all, let alone an outstanding one.  According to Mortimer Snerd, the only close encounters Flynn had was not with aliens but with Barker, Macdonald and Whigham.  I was wrong to assume that Flynn's architectural drawings had any real meaning, even when board minutes, contracts, owners and board members detail exactly what Flynn did.  They sure fooled us, didn't they?  Thankfully we have the dynamic duo of Mortimer Snerd and Tom MacWood to safeguard our understanding.  Hmmm, that grape kool-ade tastes great!

Wayne,  Why on earth would you pollute this unrelated thread with your petty name calling and insults.  It is pretty insulting to Mr. Struthers and everyone else trying to have a relevant conversation.   For the record, All I said was that so far as I know, Flynn did not re-design Merion East.  But then in my mind extending a green, tweaking another green's location, and flipping a dogleg do not count as a "redesign" of the entire course.     But I guess that is three things . . .  by triangulation do you happend to mean that if Flynn touches three things he gets the entire course?    I didn't think so.

Flynn was able to break down the cost of construction of a green, bunker, fairway, etc according to the job and the time required to do the job.  He may have been more right-brained than left-brained given how he could walk a site and get a preliminary routing done so quickly...thinking in holistic terms rather than analytical terms.  But he did show a clear ability to think analytically as well.   Geist, Rockefeller and others were keen on Flynn's ability to design and build within the estimated budget.  His techniques, likely derived from Taylor directly, were a value add that was found to be most compelling.

So you think he got this budgeting technique from Taylor?    I was under the impression that his system of keeping track of construction costs exactly parallels what he was taught at Merion as greenskeeper. 

[Dr Katz]

I am here my little nippers
house calls=$13.00 per minute
+ travel + expenses
medication=a la carte

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