[John Kavanaugh]

I think so...examples please - for or against.

[Mike Sweeney]

http://osgc.memfirstweb.net/club/scripts/section/section.asp?GRP=11554&NS=RES

Against.

Location (schools and jobs), timing and pricing drives real estate.

[John Kavanaugh]

Homes never sell well at Coore and Crenshaw courses.  I think it is an indication of the difficult putting surfaces which reflect directly on the architecture.

[W.H. Cosgrove]

Above a certain 'minimum', I would doubt Golf Architecture has anything to do with lot sales.  

Only a small percentage of purchasers nationwide actually use the facilty.  The number that sticks in my head is 30%.  Therefore the architecture of the club house may have more impact on lot sales even though the operation of that building might be a greater liability.

Secondly, very few golfers have any concept of what they might be looking at in the form of Golf Course Architecture. Hell, I'm not sure some participants on this web site understand sometimes. The print ads are probably more carefully perused than the golf course.  

And finally, I think lot sales are often based on others you might know who have already purchased in that community.  The trick would be to find the leader of that group and get them to buy a lot.  

Once again, this is based on the course being above a minimum standard.

[John Kavanaugh]

WH,

Don't you think that people play a course, or in the case of pre-sales, a course by the architect and know if they like the style or not?  Shouldn't all architecture fit the demographic for which it is intended.  I don't see a Dye course at the Villages.

[Jeff_Brauer]

John,

Yeah, I probably vote against. I think the big name designers have just as many golf courses that are part of real estate foreclosure deals as anyone.

WHG is right - only 30% of home sales go to golfers.  Others just appreciate the view.  And, women make the decision most of the tim, or at least have to be on board.  That means location, schools if applicable, etc., and as noted.

Its possible (I haven't really studied it) that CC courses don't sell lots well because of their low profile minimalism.  Studies show that green sites, the fw landing areas with bunkers, then tees, if landscaped, then open fw sell best in that order.  

Of course, any lot with a mound blocking the view sells dead last worst.  Since they do so little fw mounding, they have a fighting chance, but designers who forego "design quality" or at least consider facing bunkers, fw cuts, etc. towards nearby houses, rather than what a particular shot might yield to the better player probably stand a better chance of having good lot sales than a "pure" designer.

[W.H. Cosgrove]

WH,

Don't you think that people play a course, or in the case of pre-sales, a course by the architect and know if they like the style or not?  Shouldn't all architecture fit the demographic for which it is intended.  I don't see a Dye course at the Villages.

John, Your comment goes to the minimum standard.  Difficulty, and radical design, ala Dye, might even hurt sales.  Most don't know one architect from another. 

[Mike Sweeney]

Shouldn't all architecture fit the demographic for which it is intended. 

How many modern golf courses in America have one intended demographic for membership?

[John Kavanaugh]

Shouldn't all architecture fit the demographic for which it is intended. 

How many modern golf courses in America have one intended demographic for membership?

How many golfing demographics are there? 

[Matt Varney]

John,

The thought process behind this question leaves out one big thing - Is the property the golf course being designed and constructed on really good quality i.e. waterfront, mountain views, coastal, wooded, desert, etc....

I feel that when you combine a really good piece of property along with views other than just golf views the development project will be a success.  The golf course architect creates an amenity that makes the land even better and if the course design is scenic and challenging and still allows the average player to enjoy a round they will buy homesites.

It always suprises me when a golf architect is selected to design / build a golf course on an average piece of property like a flat farm with 15' of elevation change.  Then the devleopment side starts asking "we built the golf course why aren't we selling more properties?"

Listen to the architects and they will tell you the answer - they want really good property to work with from the start because it puts them in a position to make the land even better.
  

[Mike Hendren]

I think Sweeney nailed it. 

I'm not as big a fan of Cuscowilla as most but it's in a higher league than Reynolds Plantation's immaculate Oconee course by Rees and Mike Young's solid Longshadow.  The latter two appear to have far more success with the real estate, however. 

C & C's greens are nowhere as severe as those at KBM's Lederach yet the latter's real estate must be close to built-out. 

C & C's Sugarloaf Mountain perhaps has impeccably poor timing in one of the nation's toughest housing markets in what at first blush appeared to be a relatively remote location.

Just a few examples, as you requested.

Mike

[Tom_Doak]

John:

The whole point of hiring "signature" golf architects is to be able to sell lots BEFORE there is any golf course there, and those cannot be an indication of anything more than name reputation.

Lot sales are an indication of a good real estate outfit and a good market for it.  The fact that a lot of places are struggling to sell any lots now does not mean that the quality of golf architecture has gone down the tubes.

[John Moore II]

Against

--Lot sales can be related to the Name of an architect. Arnold Palmer, Jack Nicklaus and Tom Fazio can sell lots and not design courses that are real architectural marvels. Doak, Kidd and Coore can design architecturally sound courses that are great, but may not sell lots.
Rock Creek has lots, but its a retreat for the ultra-rich. Dormie is much the same. Hasentree in Raleigh (new Fazio) is being opened as a new primary living place for the wealthy around Raleigh. Name sells lots, not the actual architecture.

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