narly, nasty bunkers

[Mark_Fine]

Archie,
Donald Steel built some very nasty bunkers at Carnegie Abbey.  I recall in my write up on the course, you don't yell for your golf ball to "get in the bunker", like many good players do on most American courses.  

Yes I would have liked to have seen Twisted's bunkers/sand dunes be more in play especially on the front side and be more nasty.  But I understand your hesitation in that its a public course and I'm sure you had concerns about how difficult you wanted it to be.  

Like you said, maybe on the next one!
Mark

[Mike_Cirba]

Archie/Jamie;

Thanks for the heartening update on the Valley!  

As I said, I was pretty uncertain based on what I saw happening, but if you two love the look and playability, that's all I need to know.

Jamie;

Kick butt in the GAP!  

[TEPaul]

I guess they're gradually going through the course at PVGC and working on the bunkering in one way or another. It's probably not even that accurate to say 'working on the bunkering' in the usual sense--maybe more like cleaning out and clearing some and putting in new sand where needed!

Certainly everyone could see a huge difference on #2 as of a few years ago--the tree growth was cut back substantially and the bunkering on the left was redone and really exposed (bunkering right was worked on too). The sensation the player gets from the tee on #2 is different than it used to be--as the rows of bunkering on both sides sure to get in your head more than they used to--you couldn't see the bunkering on the left a few years ago--as it was sort of in trees. It seems to me they formalized the bunkering on the left into rows much more than they used to be.

(As an historic sideline here--one of the very opinionated voice at PVGC from the early days and also with his opinions on the all important 1921 Advisory Committee was one William Fownes of Oakmont (owner and creator of Oakmont). Fownes had some very strong and sometimes controversial opinions about PVGC and to me anyway the very pyschological impact of the rows of bunkering lining both sides of #2 fairway now and probably very much unsettling many golfers does have the pyschologic impact of some of Oakmont's bunkering--maybe even a "church pew" type visual effect)!

The left side of #2 used to be very unusual. If you hit the ball left into the trees a few years ago you could get into some of the teeny little bunkers in the trees most were not even aware of--and I do mean teeny--some of them appeared to be just about big enough to stand in. The fairway bunkering on #2 used to be the type golfers occassionally had to come up with something creative just to get out of them even if that meant playing backwards or maybe whacking the ball out with a putter or something. But now they're much more visible and pyschological, I think!

#3 is the interesting hole with its sand. There's always been so much sand surrounding #3 it's difficult to even notice what they've done there--and they've done quite a lot. A lot of growth has been cleared out on the right and the sand has been worked on probably making it an expanse with a lot less of the little twiggy stuff that used to be in it particularly right. But the visual impact is different now--in my opinion. The hole appears to be much more the island green in massive amounts of surrounding sand it used to be and that's a very good thing and returns the look more to what it originally was.

Going forward it looks like the bunkering greenside on #5 has been worked on and new sand added. #8 has really been worked on with new sand and the bunker right is much more formalized with new sod added on the bank, new sand, much whiter, and the bunker appears to me to be steeper somehow.

#10 has had a lot of growth cleared out of the bunkering and sand areas, new sand and the extremely penal far left bunker has been widened so you probably don't have to putt the ball down that bunker any longer to get a reasonable play onto the green. That change and that unusual "playability" I think I will miss because it was very unusual and pyschological from the tee and if you didn't use your head and take your medicine in that upper left bunker area you could definitely lose your round right there!

#17, as mentioned has had new sand and maybe cleaned out some. There's probably lots more but I didn't notice. Oh yeah, #14 right has had tree growth cleared out right exposing a lot more sand from the tee--a real positive step. I guess when you get down to it PVGC has probably done the entire course with new sand where needed!

I loved the off color of the sand areas at PVGC and at the moment some of the sand seems a bit too white and clean but I'm sure time and tide will change that back.

PVGC is by no means a manicured golf course once you get off the tees, fairways and greens, and it never will be but at the moment it's been cleaned out of some tree and twiggy encroachment and that at least is starting to expose some of the old bunkering and sand areas previously lost to visibility--so that's a good thing.

Hopefully clearing way back on #12 will happen exposing some cool old bunkering and I think they're clearing back some on the hillside on #15 down near the green-end.

Of course if they ever decided to clear way back on the right of #17 that would be really great! If they went far enough it might even inspire them to bring back the old alternate fairway!

I hope some of this cleaning up at PVGC won't change the single "playbility" feature that has always made PVGC so unusual and unique, even for good players. That was that the course possessed a number of areas here and there that were just extremely penal and requiring of some defensive course management and a degree of sanity to save your day and your round.

It's different from most other penal courses that way because at PVGC it's actually very unusual to lose your ball. It's just that the way it's always been (and hopefully still is) you can sort of get caught up in a web of sometimes slightly inextricable situations and really lose some shots (and maybe your round)-- with what some of the Pine Valleyites call "the others"!

JamieS, for you and other Open competitors who may not be all that familiar with this aspect of PVGC, do yourself a real favor and if you happen to get caught up in one of those apparently unusual places or situations don't even think about your score--just get your ball back on the fairway anyway you can and then think about your score!

[archie]

Man, do I need a proof typer!!!  First, living with plenty of surfers in OCNJ, I should know gnarly, and I mispelled it in the original post.

As to nasty bunkers, the left side of ten at PVGC is almost as bad as the DA, and #'s 2, 5, 8, 12, 13,15 are all pretty good in the gnarl index. But then again, it is vintage 1918+-.

Sand Hills has some great bunkers, but they didn't strike pure fear into me.  However, I  didn't know where they all were first time thru. If I get back, as crooked as I drive it , I might  find out about more of them.

Bill Kittleman is probably the foremost expert on bunkers that I have met. He speaks of building them with a reverence usually reserved for green construction. His attention to detail in building them is pretty legendary in Philly circles.

Back to the question, best modern bunkers, hard to single out anything really special!!! Perhaps Bandon, which I have yet to visit.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom Paul,

Thanks for the update on Pine Valley.  I have to admit that I LOVE the tree clearing, but was concerned that perhaps the bunkering might be becoming a bit too formalized in some spots.  The natural, sandy waste areas that are such a part of the allure of that wonderful course have always appeared to be just the natural, unkempt land that is not maintained (although everyone always knew that it took some work to not let them become overgrown) like the tees, fairways, and greens.  While twigs and small trees surely don't fit in, the randomness of natural growths of grasses, shrubs, and other nasty stuff surely do.  Your post gave me a good idea of what is happening overall.  

Archie,  

Bill Kittleman builds some amazingly rugged bunkers, working with Gil Hanse.  I think you can get a good idea of his work at both Inniscrone and Applebrook.  

[TEPaul]

There're some great looking bunkers coming into being at Hanse & Co's French Creek and across the street at Stonewall2 some really interesting bunker shapes have been roughed in by Kye Goalby. Apparently the surrounds are slated to be a shorter grass but the shapes are really something to see. It looks like there's about a half dozen architects out there now doing some really interesting natural bunkering project after project.

[TEPaul]

I think I may have made and intersting discovery yesterday concerning the design and construction of certain types of bunkering or sand areas from the early era--probably the teens and even 1920s.

Two sources seem to corroborate an interesting type of bunkering or sand wasty area in design.

The first is from the interesting series of photographs in GeoffShac's "The Golden Age of Golf Design" of a man and a women playing various holes of PVGC in 1922. Much of the large scale bunkering of PVGC like "Hell's Half Acre" was actually constructed as "undulated dunes" within that exapanse of sand itself! It's not much like that today--now it's an area that's basically smoothed although there are some clumps of grass and vegetation within this sandy area!

The reason I believe it was constructed that way is because Wayne and I have ran across some hole designs of one or two courses designed by William Flynn in or around 1922-3 that call for very large expanses of sand areas surrounding greens (his designs create island greens in sand) that have construction instructions calling for "undulating" areas of sand!

Obviously this was some kind of replication of the way the natural dunsy areas of the linksland were!

It's also interesting to notice that a number of PVGC's greens from that era were islands in sand (#3, 7, 8, 10, 13-except for the redan run-up, 14, 17).

Flynn being a Philly architect and having done some finishing work at PVGC for the Wilsons of Merion must have picked up on this large "undulating" areas of sand as well as the "island green in sand" and applied it to some of his own designs!

It's also very clear to see that these areas would not be places to put your golf ball--they appear very nasty and gnarly!

[Eric Pevoto]

I'm not sure of the extent of Wilson or Flynn's involvement as consultants at Kittansett (Hood, 1922), but I could certainly see the 3rd fitting the description above.  As it is now, that area surrounding the green is unkempt and random enough to add considerable pressure to the tee shot (not to mention the wind).  I wonder if at one time it was even more "dunesy"?  Yikes!

Where are some of these holes you and Wayne have discovered?  Why do I have a feeling you're going to tell me to buy the book!

[TEPaul]

Eric:

It comes from holes and routing drawing of holes Flynn did--some he never did build--but they're beautiful drawings and show much in the way of design ideas. It all comes from a treasure trove of documentation and material Wayne and I have hiding in a cave and are going through after midnight every night. If and when we write the book we'll be happy to give you one!

[Eric Pevoto]

Tom,

Ahh...so that explains the posts in the wee hours!  

I'd love to see some of those drawing and I'd happily pay for a book on Flynn.  

As for large-scale bunkering, you've got to see this latest pit Bill Kittleman is doing on the 17th at French Creek.  I'm hoping to find a way to work some photos in here pretty soon.  Look for a thread entitled "shameless plugs."