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Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Rock Creek Cattle Co.
« on: August 01, 2008, 04:01:47 PM »
I played RCCC yesterday with Mat Dunmyer, the Superintendent.  The course is in excellent condition, the fairways are firm, the greens fast...and you would have no idea some fairways were seeded in in 2007...the blue grass was thick with excellent grow in.

I won't post any photo's....but I will tell you the place is spectacular!  The "wow!" factor is high...

This is no nonsense Montana golf....no ball washers, no garbage cans...a simple, understated ,presentation. 

The fairways are wide, and where you hit your tee shot does matter. A couple of tee shots are blind....the fairways pitch and yaw, and flow naturally across the land... some with huge rolls that look much flatter from the tee box....the tee's, by the way, are pretty cool too...mowed out little areas right near the green, I assume much like the Ballyneal experience.

The greens have more movement than any greens I have ever played....I don't think I had more than a couple straight putts all day...the green complexes were incredible...and how much you could see from your fairway approach depended on where you hit your drive...false fronts, punch bowls...and like I said, lots of movement...made for a lot of fun...

We walked, and to be honest, after an Achilles tendon strain this past Monday, it probably wasn't wise on my part...the elevation gain to the highest point on the course is about 300 feet but the rolling fairways added to the wear and tear on my heel...never the less, I'd walk it again.

Shivas is playing RCCC  this weekend and I'll be interested in what he has to say about his experience there.
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Co.
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2008, 02:14:15 AM »
Craig,

I played the course recently as well, and enjoyed it very much.   I am going to hold off on going into it until more have played it, but will comment that it really fits with the place.  It is pretty unusual country, not spectacular like other parts of Montana but vast, and for the course to fit so well in such a landscape is pretty incredible.   

I'll hold off on photos of the course as well, but here is a photo from last May, looking west from near the 9th green.

« Last Edit: August 02, 2008, 02:23:27 AM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Ryan Farrow

Re: Rock Creek Cattle Co.
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2008, 02:24:27 AM »
If any of you guys have a few pictures of 15,16, and 18... or just 18 please send me a quick message. I am anxious to see how the bunkers turned out. I doubt if I will ever be able to see them again in person any time soon.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Co.
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2008, 02:39:45 AM »
Sure Ryan,

But I just have to ask.  What were you thinking? ? ? ? ?



Seriously, IM me your email address and I will send you some tomorrow. 

David

NOTICE.  THE PHOTO ABOVE IS A JOKE.  NOT ROCK CREEK.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2008, 02:43:08 AM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Ryan Farrow

Re: Rock Creek Cattle Co.
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2008, 10:05:56 AM »
HAHAH.... and then I seriously thought that tee marker was a dog. I'm thinking Baxter from anchorman....... I didn't know you speak Spanish.

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Co.
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2008, 11:46:44 AM »
Ryan...I might have some pictures of those holes....

I loved 14!  The fairway slopes left to right and its downhill to the green. The fairway squeezes between to large mounds or ridges....I hit a drive just behind the right hand ridge and could not see the green at all for my approach..fortunately, there's plenty of room around the green.....

15 is the "drivable" par 4....lots of great bunkering on both left and right sides of the fairway and one smack dab in front of the green....the photo on the web site does not show these bunkers well at all...I did not find any of the bunker off the tee...the green is another story all together....huge mound in the center, drop offs to the back right....lots of movement!  One of the wildest greens on the course.

16 is a very solid, short par 4...the fairway slopes hard from left to right...my drive landed in the center of the fairway and rolled nearly into the bunker on the far right side of the fairway...I had an easy 8 iron to the green....and again, the green has lots of contours.

17 is a good looking par 3...the bunkers were no problem...the creek cuts across in from of the green and makes the tee shot interesting...the green is pretty narrow and a ball landing in the middle of the green rolls off the back easily...

18 was the one hole that didn't work for me...it runs along Rock Creek and most of the left side is lined with cottonwood, river bottom vegetation...totally different vegetation than the other 17 holes...the fairway is wide and easy to hit...the second shot slightly uphill to a medium sze green...the bunkers, if I recall are right of the green and do not seem like they will come into play that often...an ok hole on a course chuck full of spectacular holes.
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Co.
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2008, 06:58:03 PM »
Craig:

I would have been worried if you'd had any problem with the bunkers on #17, since there aren't any bunkers on that hole.  ;)

Also, I think #16 is 465 yards from the back tee.  Maybe you missed that one ... but to me 465 yards isn't short, even at 4700 feet elevation.

Doug Ralston

Re: Rock Creek Cattle Co.
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2008, 07:03:49 PM »
Is this club like Pine Valley, somehow trying to maintain exclusivity by forbidding any photographs? I have already started a movement to get President Obama to declare Pine Valley a National Monument and make it available to the public at $40.  :D

I'd hate to have to get 'emminent domain' at RCCC too, just so I can see it.

Doug

Ryan Farrow

Re: Rock Creek Cattle Co.
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2008, 07:26:47 PM »
Doug, there have been quite a few threads with pictures of this golf course, I have posted a bunch myself. The Doakster wants to maintain some order and not spoil the surprise for those actually visiting. So a hole by hole account of pictures like the Ballyneal thread shouldn't be happening any time soon. If you check out their website they also have some shots.

And Craig, I've gotten a few responses so I should be alright on the picture front... and 15 is driveable not "driveable" I would know because I did it! (from the appropriate tee box of course  ;)).


Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Co.
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2008, 07:33:26 PM »
Tom..you are correct (obviously ;D) no bunkers on 17...just a stunning view of the large rock out cropping looming above the hole....

16....if I recall I hit an 8 iron from that right side fairway bunker...we played from the middle tees...426 yards...I know that sounds like a long par four, but it sure didn't play that long...both #1 and #2 "played" longer....
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Co.
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2008, 09:54:37 PM »
....this thread reminds me of the Conceptual Art movement back sometime in the 80's.....
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Co.
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2008, 02:45:58 AM »
Craig:

I would have been worried if you'd had any problem with the bunkers on #17, since there aren't any bunkers on that hole.  ;)

Also, I think #16 is 465 yards from the back tee.  Maybe you missed that one ... but to me 465 yards isn't short, even at 4700 feet elevation.

Tom and Craig,

We played #16 twice, once in the morning and once early afternoon, and just a slight change conditions appeared to make a big difference in how the hole played.  Not so much for the weak shots I hit, but the gentleman with whom I played hit a solid drive each time, and was probably a two to three club difference between morning and afternoon.   

I sense that throughout the course the challenges will vary significantly with even slight changes in the conditions.   This is as it should be at any great course.
__________________________________________________

Is this club like Pine Valley, somehow trying to maintain exclusivity by forbidding any photographs? I have already started a movement to get President Obama to declare Pine Valley a National Monument and make it available to the public at $40.  :D

I'd hate to have to get 'emminent domain' at RCCC too, just so I can see it.


Doug,

One reason I haven't posted photos is what Ryan mentions above, but I imagine that there will be plenty of them before too long.

But another reason is that I am finding it very difficult to do the course justice with the photographs I have taken thus far.   Sure one can photograph cool bunkers and/or the snowcapped Pintler Range in the background, but to me the essence of the course is how well it fits into the landscape.   

I am sure it is mostly operator error, and hopefully next time I will get some more telling photos, but it really is the kind of place where you just have to be there.

Here are a few teaser photos that hopefully give you an idea of the feel of the place.  Some of these are a bit off, but you will get the idea.

The first dogleg, ninety degrees . . .


I keep hearing about Old Macdonald's farm, and that will be fine I am sure. But it seems to me that New Macdonald has a ranch . . .



Someone sent me this picture today, I don't know the one on the right, but I am pretty certain that the one on the left is Shivas bent over looking for his ball . . .



This photo was taken near the middle of the day, but if you look closely you can get a sense of just how much movement there is in this glacial moraine land . . .



I cannot imagine that anyone ever has to wait at this place, but the benches are pretty cool places just to hang out . . .



The runoff was extremely late this year (June snow doesn't help.)  Many of the rivers and streams were at record highs for mid-July  Not sure if Rock Creek set any records but it was certainly rolling.   This is from a bridge between the eighth tee and green, and the roar of the water was incredible.    It is a very good example of a natural aural hazard, reminding me what awaited a slightly pulled ball.   Other aural hazards exist at at Pebble 18 and CPC 15, 16, 17  . . .



Were it not on private land, this would be classified as a Montana state highway . . .



Cheating a little on this last one, but this bunker really reminds me of the kind of erosion one often finds on authentic Montana ranchland.   Since RCCC is a real ranch, I post the picture not to show you the course, but to give you a feel of the place . . .
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Co.
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2008, 01:46:09 PM »
Well, I will post a picture...with Tom's approval.

This is the 7th hole fairway looking back toward the tee....the tee is well to the right in this photo. The hole plays 486yards from the tips...we played it at 443 yards...I hit a driver own the left side...the wrong place to be...and a 5 iron

You can see how the fairway tumbles naturally down the land....every fairway fits the land...according to Mat there was little to no earth moving at RCCC.

No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Co.
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2008, 03:09:09 PM »
Craig:

That seventh hole will be a hard one to depict in photos -- I wish I had the topo of it handy to show everyone how it fits in, because that hole was really the key to making the routing work.  (Eric Iverson told me that was the one hole he would never have found.)  It was clear that we were going to have to cross Rock Creek with a par-3 at number eight, and the terrain on the east side of the creek was undulating enough that it was very difficult to find a longer hole that got you to #8 tee.

The idea behind the hole was that you would play a tee shot along the high ground in the back of your photo, and then play from the elevated fairway down to the green.  At first I thought I would just leave the bank down to the lower fairway just as rough, but after clearing, the angle of the tee shot was a bit across the line of the first ridge, so the player's eye is led to the lower landing area as you were ... even though it's not the place to go, in my estimation, because it's a narrow landing area and you have to hit a bomb to get around the corner of the rocky hill on the left.

The tee you played was supposed to be the back tee, but they added the tee at 486 because the longer hitters said the hole played too short -- i.e. they don't like laying up and would rather force a shorter hitter to hit driver along the ridge.

P.S.  The only earthmoving was to lower the top of the ninth and eleventh fairways a bit, and to cut and fill the first landing area on #14.  But to scoop up all the boulders in the field of play and bury them in a few spots around the course cost more than the earthmoving budget of any course we've built so far.

Ryan Farrow

Re: Rock Creek Cattle Co.
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2008, 04:55:47 PM »
Tom, it would be interesting to hear how you think this property ranks among your other courses. IMO it is one of the most unique and perfectly scaled inland golf sites I have ever seen. Probably one of the best sans sandy soil sites out there. (minus the rocks, but they certainly add to the charm after the initial construction headache)

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Co.
« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2008, 05:04:26 PM »
Ryan:

It's one of the best sites we've ever worked with, and that's saying something.

Still, I wonder how it will be received, because we couldn't comb the ENTIRE site for rocks ... if you top one or hit a very wayward shot into the native, the punishment is severe.  I am sure that will hold the course back a bit in the rankings, as opposed to somewhere like Ballyneal where it's all sandy out there, but I have no idea how much it will hurt.

JSPayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Co.
« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2008, 05:54:53 PM »

P.S.  The only earthmoving was to lower the top of the ninth and eleventh fairways a bit, and to cut and fill the first landing area on #14.  But to scoop up all the boulders in the field of play and bury them in a few spots around the course cost more than the earthmoving budget of any course we've built so far.

Tom......this speaks volumes about the type of work you are doing right now. Congratulations and.......amazing. Truly GCA and construction as it should be.
"To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing it's best, night and day, to make you everybody else means to fight the hardest battle any human being can fight; and never stop fighting." -E.E. Cummings

Ryan Farrow

Re: Rock Creek Cattle Co.
« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2008, 01:00:39 AM »
Ryan:

It's one of the best sites we've ever worked with, and that's saying something.

Still, I wonder how it will be received, because we couldn't comb the ENTIRE site for rocks ... if you top one or hit a very wayward shot into the native, the punishment is severe.  I am sure that will hold the course back a bit in the rankings, as opposed to somewhere like Ballyneal where it's all sandy out there, but I have no idea how much it will hurt.

Tom, it should not hold it back in the rankings. These fairways are ample, even in the afternoon winds from the tips. If you miss a fairway, you deserve a pitch back to the fairway here, and you deserve to maybe even have an unplayable due to a rock issue.

This golf course is superb.

Let me ask you:  in the member-member recently, what would you guess was the toughest hole in relation?  I actually guesses it today during an afternoon round with the assistant... 

I'd have to go with 2 or 6 (possibly 16 but I have never played it....)

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Co.
« Reply #18 on: August 04, 2008, 05:15:10 AM »
Ryan:

It's one of the best sites we've ever worked with, and that's saying something.

Still, I wonder how it will be received, because we couldn't comb the ENTIRE site for rocks ... if you top one or hit a very wayward shot into the native, the punishment is severe.  I am sure that will hold the course back a bit in the rankings, as opposed to somewhere like Ballyneal where it's all sandy out there, but I have no idea how much it will hurt.

Tom, it should not hold it back in the rankings. These fairways are ample, even in the afternoon winds from the tips. If you miss a fairway, you deserve a pitch back to the fairway here, and you deserve to maybe even have an unplayable due to a rock issue.

This golf course is superb.

Let me ask you:  in the member-member recently, what would you guess was the toughest hole in relation?  I actually guesses it today during an afternoon round with the assistant... 

I know this probably isn't it being that it is a par 3, but assuming at least some were playing the way back, I'll go with a long shot and say 14.  With any wind at all, it could have been a bear.  And if there was an actual bear, it would be even tougher. 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Co.
« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2008, 07:00:45 AM »
The 14th is not a par 3.....but 12 and 13 are...that said, I think 14 would be very tough with some wind...as would 12. 
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Co.
« Reply #20 on: August 04, 2008, 07:20:34 AM »
David:

You are thinking of #13, the long par 3, but I wouldn't go with that one.

My guess for the toughest hole would be #4.  A bad tee shot means a reload, and even after a good tee shot the uphill second will have many players swinging for the fences.  #11 might provide problems, as well, especially until the members get comfortable where to aim from the tee.

Strangely enough, though, the hole I screwed up twice in two plays this spring was #9.  It's an easy hole if you hit a really good tee shot, but it plays into the wind so that's not so easily done, and there are a lot of rocks around if you mess up.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Co.
« Reply #21 on: August 04, 2008, 11:18:23 AM »
The 14th is not a par 3.....but 12 and 13 are...that said, I think 14 would be very tough with some wind...as would 12. 

Tom's right I meant 13.  But just think howtough 14 would be as a 502 yard par 3.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Joe Perches

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Co.
« Reply #22 on: August 04, 2008, 11:53:33 AM »


Previous pictures have shown the bunkers there as blindingly white.
Perhaps those pictures were photoshopped and overly saturated.

I rather like this bunker location and shape, but the material doesn't seem right to me.
Maybe wind will blow most of the fines away.

How do the bunkers there fit in terms of location, shaping, hazard, surrounds, color, materials, drainage, etc?  Did the rocks on the property determine some of the bunker locations?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Co.
« Reply #23 on: August 04, 2008, 12:29:49 PM »
Joe:

I will let others comment on your other points, but I can tell you that there is about a zillion dollars worth of bunker liner and drainage in the bunkers to keep the rocks from coming up in them.

The final choice for sand was a bit whiter than I would have liked, but I think it will naturalize a bit after a winter or two.

Ryan Farrow

Re: Rock Creek Cattle Co.
« Reply #24 on: August 05, 2008, 12:02:50 AM »
Shivas, I have to agree with you on 13, 4 iron is the longest club in my bag besides a driver and 3 wood and I had no problem reaching that green. Keeping it straight was another matter. How does that bridge look? Swinging? Walking down the canyon and up the hill was no fun at all, I can tell you that from experience.

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