[JSPayne]

Since "firm & fast" is the en vogue topic of the week (heck, of the last few years I guess now), my question everyone is this:

What is too firm?

I know we've talked about the possibility of a course being TOO firm & fast, but what just about firm greens?

I just played today at my course and a fellow player complimented me on the fact that the greens this year actually hold a shot, as opposed to last year when he said "the last super had the greens like concrete....the putting was smooth and fast, but you couldn't land a ball on the green without it bouncing and running off to the back, let alone fix a ball mark if you did happen to hit the green."

And for this course, and the type of play we get, I agree. What are already overly slow rounds would become disaterous if well struck, lofty shots to the greens didn't hold at all.

[JESII]

Is there room to bounce it onto the green?

Can those approaches be maintained as firm?

Would your members enjoy a more comprehensive golf challenge?

Firm greens carry many benefits if the initial complaints can be stomached...which is no small task, as I understand it.

[JSPayne]

All greens have some sort of approach, however.....

Not all pin positions can be accessed via the approaches, as many come in from one side or the other due to front facing bunkers.

On the particular hole the comment was made, it was a downhill 176 yard par 3 with very little approach to a front pin position. Specifically, the player said with the greens in the condition they were in a year ago, any shot that dropped near that front pin would have bounced and released all the way to the back. How do you access that pin position on such greens?

[JESII]

I do not personally believe that all (or even the majority, really) of hole locations "need" to be accessible. I think there are times when par should mean that number of good shots.

[Chip Gaskins]

JES II-

Is the "tap in" a good shot, or do you really mean four good shots?

Chip

[JSPayne]

JES....

I agree with you......if I was setting my course up for any sort of Mini- or PGA- TOUR event. With a full course of plus handicap golfers, it should take "par" number of good shots to get the ball in the hole.

But for Joe Schmoe? You think your average golfer on a daily-fee public layout shouldn't have reasonable access to all the pins, should they hit a good shot, aerial/ground or otherwise?

I have a hard time seeing Mr. 24-handicapper saying to himself, "Hmm....the pin's in the front, I'm just going to have to drop it on the stick, have it roll out 30 feet past, knock in my two putts and call it a good day."

[JESII]

Chip,

I have hit plenty of bad "tap-ins_" and would rather take my chances with the good ones...

JSP,

Yep. I think Joe Public should work for par once in a while.

[Jed Peters]

I need to get out there and play your course.

Is there any reason for me to though?

[Matt_Cohn]

All greens have some sort of approach, however.....

Not all pin positions can be accessed via the approaches, as many come in from one side or the other due to front facing bunkers.

On the particular hole the comment was made, it was a downhill 176 yard par 3 with very little approach to a front pin position. Specifically, the player said with the greens in the condition they were in a year ago, any shot that dropped near that front pin would have bounced and released all the way to the back. How do you access that pin position on such greens?

I had a similar one Monday in a qualifier. The hole was 200 yards all carry over a valley - no way to run it up. The pin was front left, maybe 6 paces on. The green was about 60% brown, shiny, and really hard. I hit the shot as perfectly as I could in the morning and it finished in the middle of the green. The same shot in the afternoon would have been about 2/3 of the way to the back. I couldn't decide how I felt about this setup.

[JSPayne]

Jed,

What reason do you need? I will admit that Empire Ranch is probably not as architectually stimulating as Morgan Creek, but I also feel that there isn't anything NOT to like about the course. As a first year super I don't have the conditions perfectly where I'd like them to be as I'm still learning the property, but I put them above average for this region at this time of year. The course itself isn't overly difficult, with more or less forgiving fairways off the tee and demanding more placement and thought on finding some of the tougher pin positions on large, nearly pure bentrgrass greens.

For me personally, I appreciate that there are several front facing bunkers around the greens that can make you think hard about how to lay up on the par 5s and where to hit your drive on the par 4s. The "home stretch" of holes #14-18 I enjoy the most as they are located up on top of the hill and you ride the ridgeline overlooking the whole Sacramento valley as you finish up your round.

I'd be happy to have you out sometime.

[JESII]

Matt,

How would you feel about playing to a far right corner pin when the wind is homling from the right?

To me, these issues seem similar in that the conditions have mandated the shot is extremely difficult on this particular day...maybe not tomorrow.

[Jed Peters]

Jed,

What reason do you need? I will admit that Empire Ranch is probably not as architectually stimulating as Morgan Creek, but I also feel that there isn't anything NOT to like about the course. As a first year super I don't have the conditions perfectly where I'd like them to be as I'm still learning the property, but I put them above average for this region at this time of year. The course itself isn't overly difficult, with more or less forgiving fairways off the tee and demanding more placement and thought on finding some of the tougher pin positions on large, nearly pure bentrgrass greens.

For me personally, I appreciate that there are several front facing bunkers around the greens that can make you think hard about how to lay up on the par 5s and where to hit your drive on the par 4s. The "home stretch" of holes #14-18 I enjoy the most as they are located up on top of the hill and you ride the ridgeline overlooking the whole Sacramento valley as you finish up your round.

I'd be happy to have you out sometime.

That's perfect enough reasoning...what I wanted to hear!

[Richard Hetzel]

A few summers go I played Wintonbury Hills in Connecticut. I hit some of the best highest spinning approach shots ever and NOTHING held on those rock hard greens. If you have played there, you'll know exactly what I am speaking about.  I guess they dont have too much of a pitch mark problem there.

[Matt_Cohn]

Matt,

How would you feel about playing to a far right corner pin when the wind is homling from the right?

To me, these issues seem similar in that the conditions have mandated the shot is extremely difficult on this particular day...maybe not tomorrow.

Hmm. Wasn't it Nicklaus who said one time about Muirfield Village that you're not supposed to be able to get to all the pins from the fairways, you're just supposed to get it in the hole in the least number of shots. Interesting.

[JESII]

I don't recall that, but it makes sense to me...

[Ian Larson]

Who says that golf greens have to hold a shot? If theyre firm and fast adjust your game accordingly and play the course like everybody else.

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