[Jeremy_Glenn.]

Not to get the purists of this site all worked up over their tea and crumpets, but shouldn't this rule about a penalty stoke after grounding your putter ON THE GREEN be deleted from the rule book.  I mean, when, in the history of the game, has a grounded putter EVER caused a ball to move on the green? 

Here's the rule (18-2b): If a player's ball in play moves after he has addressed it (other than as a result of a stroke), the player is deemed to have moved the ball and incurs a penalty of one stroke.

Couldn't it be easy just to add (other than as a result of a stroke or on the putting green)?  Wouldn't that do away with all the silliness we're seeing on the greens tomorrow.

On another note, Yannick Pilon and I made a $5 bet ten years ago as to who would be first to win another tournament, Nick Faldo or Greg Norman.  It seemed like a good bet at the time, but the years went by and by.  But honestly, now, I couldn't be happier to give Yannick that 5$.  Go Greg!!

[Padraig Dooley]

Just curious Jeremy, Are you saying that downward pressure behind a ball cannot cause it to move?

[C. Squier]

Just curious Jeremy, Are you saying that downward pressure behind a ball cannot cause it to move?

To the point that anyone on this planet presses down in order to somehow improve their lie or shot?  No.

[Padraig Dooley]

Clint, there are situations where grounding the club behind the ball will cause it to move, Jack Nicklaus used to always hover the club because it was common for a grounded club in the Scioto rough to cause the ball to move.

I've had situations where I've felt grounding the putter might cause it to move. Have you?

[Mark Bourgeois]

I mean, when, in the history of the game, has a grounded putter EVER caused a ball to move on the green? 

To keep this architecturally related, my answer is all the time -- certainly in windy conditions like those in this Open.

The slope of the green, the direction of the wind relative to ball and putter -- there are any number of factors that, when "triggered" by putter hitting ground can cause the ball to move.

In fact, playing in virtually identical conditions one month ago, I suffered this twice in one day!  First on TOC and second on St Andrews New.  But it was the same problem: the wind knocked me off my stance, the putter went down -- didn't touch the ball -- the ball moved.  Chain reaction.

Wild.  When you held the putter aloft at a certain angle to the wind, it sort of sung, a little like a tuning fork.  Balls on the green occasionally oscillated out of their lies.  I left one approach shot short, a few inches short of precipice on the green about 20 feet away from the hole.  As we approached the green a gust of wind hit, the ball trickled, caught the slope, and finished 3 inches away for a kick-in birdie!

Mark

[C. Squier]

Clint, there are situations where grounding the club behind the ball will cause it to move, Jack Nicklaus used to always hover the club because it was common for a grounded club in the Scioto rough to cause the ball to move.

I've had situations where I've felt grounding the putter might cause it to move. Have you?

Huge difference in the rough and on the green.  In the rough, it can be seen as trying to improve your lie.  How can it improve your lie on the green?  It can't. 

[Padraig Dooley]

Clint, how can grounding a club in the rough be seen as trying to improve the lie?

[C. Squier]

Clint, how can grounding a club in the rough be seen as trying to improve the lie?

To move the grass around under/aside the ball.  Or to let the ball settle closer to the ground.  You can't affect the way the ball sits on the green, nor is there any grass around the ball that can be moved.  Plus the wind isn't a factor anywhere but on the greens.  Not to mention that when the rule was made, a ball blowing on the green wasn't much of an issue because the grass was much longer.  The spirit of the rule is out of whack w/ reality, IMO.

[Padraig Dooley]

To move the grass around under/aside the ball.  Or to let the ball settle closer to the ground.

I'm sorry Clint, I'm just a bit confused, this sounds like improving the lie and not grounding a club.

The situations I've seen the odd where grounding the club leads to improving the lie is when somebody grounds a wood behind the ball, pats down the grass and replaces the wood with an iron to play the shot, but anybody who does this runs out of playing partners quickly.

[C. Squier]

To move the grass around under/aside the ball.  Or to let the ball settle closer to the ground.

I'm sorry Clint, I'm just a bit confused, this sounds like improving the lie and not grounding a club.

The situations I've seen the odd where grounding the club leads to improving the lie is when somebody grounds a wood behind the ball, pats down the grass and replaces the wood with an iron to play the shot, but anybody who does this runs out of playing partners quickly.

Then what are they trying to protect against with the current rule? 

I'm willing to bet they simply made the rule many decades ago to protect against improving your lie and didn't make any distinction on the greens because the wind couldn't/wouldn't move the ball.  What advantage does the rule protect against for the guy who grounds his putter versus the player who doesn't?  I can't think of anything.....and if there isn't an advantage one gets, why make it a rule?

[Padraig Dooley]

Clint, if a ball is oscillating on the green, due to wind or any other reason, the club is grounded behind the ball and it moves, can you say for certain that the action of grounding the club didn't cause the ball to move?

[C. Squier]

Clint, if a ball is oscillating on the green, due to wind or any other reason, the club is grounded behind the ball and it moves, can you say for certain that the action of grounding the club didn't cause the ball to move?

Who grounds a putter while the ball is oscillating?  What about when a player is marking a ball and the wind blows it....who is to say the coin didn't hit it or being laid behind the ball made it move?  But in that case, the player isn't penalized.  A simple change in the rule to say that if you're addressing the ball and it moves, replace it with no penalty.  If you're not addressing the ball and it moves before you've marked, hope it rolls towards the hole. 

Same thing happens in the US Open when the greens are super quick.  It turns golfers into hitters buckling at a curve ball.  Last time I checked, I thought you were supposed to be able to play without worrying about a moving target.  Again, spirit of the original rule and advantage gained are the 2 things I look to.

[Tom_Doak]

When this becomes a problem, it is equal parts wind speed and green speed.

Trying to get the greens very fast for a tournament in a windy location is playing with trouble.

[John_Cullum]

A few years ago, the rule was changed to remove the irrebuttable presumption that a ball was deemed to be caused to move by the player when loose impediments within 1 club length of the ball were moved.

So this is a matter the ruling bodies have recently looked into and they have chosen to keep the provision about causing a ball to move if you address it and ground your club. I guess they figure it is just too close to call

[Jeremy_Glenn.]

Just to be clear, I'm only talking on the green.

Obviously, in the rough for example (or on pine needles at Augusta), grounding your club behind the ball would probably cause the ball to move.  But on a green? 

Clint has it right:  The ball moved? Just put it back.  No penalty.   What's the big deal?

[C. Squier]

Here's how hypocritical the rules are in this instance:

On the tee box, you can knock your ball off tee and replace it....and the only penalty you have is hearing your playing partners say "1" in unison.  But on the green, you touch the ground behind the ball, never touching the ball and its a penalty.  Sounds backwards to me.

I don't want this to turn into the next "cheater line", but I thought the rules were made to stop players from gaining unfair advantage?  There is no advantage that one gets from putting their putter on the ground behind the ball when its windy and having to replace it if it moves a millimeter away.

[Richard Choi]

To me, this rule probably came about from the time when greens were a lot shaggier (or even sand based) and grounding a club could have a significant influence on the ball.

But, with the greens today, it is absurd to argue that you can improve a lie on a green by grounding a putter. It would be doubly absurd to argue that anyone even tries.

This is yet another antiquated rule that needs to go. if the putter has not touched the ball and the ball moves, you should just replace to ball and play away.

This year's Open is showing you just how silly this rule is. I mean, what is more important? That people don't try to improve a lie on the green by grounding the club (ABSURD!!!) or a round lating 6 hours because it takes 10 min to putt a 3-footer??!!!

What is worse for the game of golf???!!!

[Bob_Huntley]

To move the grass around under/aside the ball.  Or to let the ball settle closer to the ground.

I'm sorry Clint, I'm just a bit confused, this sounds like improving the lie and not grounding a club.

The situations I've seen the odd where grounding the club leads to improving the lie is when somebody grounds a wood behind the ball, pats down the grass and replaces the wood with an iron to play the shot, but anybody who does this runs out of playing partners quickly.

Padraig,

When a Japanese golfer of great renown came to the US, he did exactly what you describe, he used his fairway  wood to improve his lie, all the time.He got away with it in Japan but came a cropper in the the USA.  Jumbo Osaki never could win or play well over here..

I think Greg Norman called it on him.


Bob

[JohnV]

About a year ago, an LPGA Player, I believe it was Christie Kerr, grounded her putter behind the ball on the putting green when it was on a bit of a slope.  The ball moved immediately afterward and rolled about 20 feet away.  Plenty of other players on the PGA Tour and other tours have penalized themselves for similar things.  If your ball is sitting on a small bump or next to a small hole, it can easily roll over if you press the ground. 

There doesn't need to be a breath of wind.

The point of this rule is that it eliminates any argument about what caused the ball to move.  No need to discuss it, you had addressed the ball, it moved, you are penalized.  Next time think before you put that putter on the ground.

By the way, the announcers on ABC were incorrect many times today when they said that the player had addressed the ball when he grounded the putter.  He hadn't addressed it until he had grounded the putter AND taken his stance.  Many players put the putter down first.

Also Decision 18-2b/4 says that if the putter has been grounded, but the stance not completed and there is strong evidence that the ball was moved by THE WIND or something else, there is NO PENALTY!  I think there would have been pretty strong evidence in those cases today.

[JohnV]

Richard, interestingly the rule used to be that if the ball moved after you addressed it or you caused it to move, you added one stroke and played it from where it came to rest.  That made it just the same as a stroke.

I wouldn't have a problem with returning to that.

[JohnV]

Another example of a ball moving after the putter was put down was at the 15th hole at the Masters this year when one of the Amateurs had his ball move.  I don't think it was very windy that day either.

Fast greens and steep slopes or greens with little bumps and depressions in them are the recipes for balls moving.

[Jim Nugent]

Fast greens and steep slopes or greens with little bumps and depressions in them are the recipes for balls moving.

And that is reason to penalize the golfer? 

Why not replace the ball without penalty? 

[Buck Wolter]

If you don't ground the club have you played your shot without ever addressing the ball?

[TEPaul]

"If you don't ground the club have you played your shot without ever addressing the ball?"

Buck:

Other than in a hazard, yes (in a hazard the Rules consider that you have "addressed" your ball when you have taken your stance in preparation to play the shot). They say Nicklaus never grounded his club anywhere and some say he may've done that throughout his career simply because if the ball moved he would never have been deemed to have caused it to move and would therefore not be penalized.

There was an interesting ruling with Nicklaus in one of the Masters. His ball was on a bank and just before playing the ball (he did not ground his club) the ball moved and rolled much closer to the hole. Apparently, in some thought towards fairness, Nicklaus replaced his ball which he should not have done. Luckily there was a Rules official on hand who advised him he had to play the ball from where it came to rest nearer the hole.

[C. Squier]

Also Decision 18-2b/4 says that if the putter has been grounded, but the stance not completed and there is strong evidence that the ball was moved by THE WIND or something else, there is NO PENALTY!  I think there would have been pretty strong evidence in those cases today.

Ok, what about strong winds at Oakmont and the ball is on the crest of a hill?  The entire rule is based on interpretation as it stands today.  Again, there is no advantage a player receives by grounding a club on the green.

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