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Jed Peters

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Herbert Fowler
« Reply #25 on: July 18, 2008, 09:34:30 AM »
Wasn't fowler involved with the design of merion?

TEPaul

Re: Herbert Fowler
« Reply #26 on: July 18, 2008, 12:59:28 PM »
"Wasn't fowler involved with the design of merion?"


Jeb: 

You could definitely say that, particularly under the new "Tautology" method of architecture research recently pioneered on here by a few that maintains under certain laws no possiblility should be excluded. Merion's architectural attribution should include a couple of hundred people at least. ;)

Adam_Messix

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Herbert Fowler
« Reply #27 on: July 18, 2008, 01:40:30 PM »
David--

I'm not sure if I am reading your current post correctly, but you mentioned that Fowler designed the Ambassador Hotel Golf Course that later became the "first" Rancho Park.  Has Rancho Park moved and the Fowler course NLE? 

For those of you who have not seen it, Eastward Ho! is definitely worth the effort to go see. 

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Herbert Fowler
« Reply #28 on: July 18, 2008, 01:52:06 PM »
Adam,

I could be wrong, but don't think Rancho has ever moved.  It was called the Ambassador Hotel Golf Course for a couple of years.   

You could definitely say that, particularly under the new "Tautology" method of architecture research recently pioneered on here by a few that maintains under certain laws no possiblility should be excluded. Merion's architectural attribution should include a couple of hundred people at least. ;)

Will there ever be a thread where you do not make a snide comment about Merion origins?   Pardon us for suggesting that the person who did the first routing and the person who had final say over the routing should be considered as having been part of the design process. 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Herbert Fowler
« Reply #29 on: July 18, 2008, 01:54:33 PM »
Bill:

Just tap into the old magazines found on the websites of LA84 or the USGA "Segl" section on the USGA website. There is a wealth of great old ADS in there for practically everything to do with golf and architecture.

Tom, tried to find the "Segl" section - where is it?  I was looking on the home page USGA.org as well as the site map on that home page, no luck.


Thanks, I'd love to peruse those old ads.

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Herbert Fowler
« Reply #30 on: July 18, 2008, 02:43:57 PM »
I've been digging up some old Herbert Fowler newspaper articles.  Is he generally credited with starting '1 shot' golf courses, as the articles call them back then, which we now call par 3 courses?
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Herbert Fowler
« Reply #31 on: July 18, 2008, 03:46:39 PM »
Here is a link to a thread I started on Fowler.

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,23624.0.html
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Herbert Fowler
« Reply #32 on: July 18, 2008, 08:11:54 PM »
Here is a link to a thread I started on Fowler.

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,23624.0.html

Thanks for posting that discussion from 2006.  I loved my visits to Delamere Forest and Beau Desert later that year, and would love to play some more Fowler.

I'll try to find my Beau Desert history that was given to me by their secretary, and post the pages with Fowler's history.  Maybe some fresh news!

TEPaul

Re: Herbert Fowler
« Reply #33 on: July 18, 2008, 10:43:43 PM »
"Tom, tried to find the "Segl" section - where is it?  I was looking on the home page USGA.org as well as the site map on that home page, no luck.



Bill:

USGA Main Page
Supporting the Game
Museum
Resource for Researchers (on top in white)
Seagle Electronic Library
« Last Edit: July 18, 2008, 10:45:45 PM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: Herbert Fowler
« Reply #34 on: July 18, 2008, 10:51:07 PM »
"Will there ever be a thread where you do not make a snide comment about Merion origins?"

A snide comment about Merion's origins? I don't think so. The only snide comments I've made are about a couple of people who have no understanding of Merion's origins.   

Jed Peters

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Herbert Fowler
« Reply #35 on: July 19, 2008, 12:08:36 AM »
"Will there ever be a thread where you do not make a snide comment about Merion origins?"

A snide comment about Merion's origins? I don't think so. The only snide comments I've made are about a couple of people who have no understanding of Merion's origins.   

You responded to me. I was joking. I think you were too.

But my name's Jed.

Will there ever be a thread where at least one poster shows that they have no sense of humor?

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Herbert Fowler
« Reply #36 on: July 19, 2008, 05:50:26 AM »
I would like to know more about Fowler - he seems to be fairly elusive.  I especially would like to know more about his "partnership" with Simpson.  I am beginning to believe that Simpson had more involvement in Fowler's later work than I previously thought.  Lets face it, Fowler wasn't a young man when some of these gems like Berkshire were built and both Berkshires do seem to be more in the Colt/Alison/Simpson mould than Fowler's.  I have no evidence, but I suspect a lot of the detail work for Berkshire was more down to Simpson than Fowler.  I also have serious questions concerning Saunton. 

In any case, this is all so difficult to tell because Fowler's look was very different (much more basic looking, functional architecture relying heavily on the lay of the land) pre-Colt and it seemed to change to more closely emulate Colt after Colt hit the big time.  I don't know if this is down to Colt's influence on design at the time (which I think effected Willie Park Jr) or Simpson's partnership or both events in combination with other stuff.  To me it seems that after Colt came along many of the courses built (and re-designed) seem to look more Coltish than previously.  I don't know if Colt can be given enough credit for this change in aesthetic and to some degree strategy.  The way green sites were used/developed became more complicated in that purely grade level stuff just wasn't making the mark for the best courses.  In another way, it was a shame because courses like Huntercombe became obsolete in terms of elite design.  I think grade level design carried on for a long while (and still is in use to some degree), but mainly for run of the mill clubs. 

Ciao

New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Herbert Fowler
« Reply #37 on: July 19, 2008, 08:21:26 AM »
Sean

That Simpson reference is intriguing.

I think it was Hunter who in his book excoriated an unnamed architect who breezed into California with a bunch of plasticine models, using plasticine as a crutch for not spending more time on site.

I think it was deduced, or at least guessed, Hunter was writing about Fowler.  Fowler wrote of a transcontinental train trip spent building plasticine models.

You might use the search function ("plasticine") and dig up that recent thread where this was discussed.

Mark
« Last Edit: July 19, 2008, 08:35:33 AM by Mark Bourgeois »

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Herbert Fowler
« Reply #38 on: July 19, 2008, 08:32:33 AM »
Mark -

I have always wondered who Hunter was talking about in that passage. Interesting.

I too can't get a very clear picture of Fowler. He was well respected. I wonder how much of that was due to his being from a fairly high step on the social ladder or his design talents or both.

Bob 

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Herbert Fowler
« Reply #39 on: July 19, 2008, 04:56:32 PM »
I believe I have seen a letter from Hunter to Travis which is pretty harsh as to Fowler's work.   Essentially, I recall that Hunter was imploring Travis to come out to California so the likes of Fowler would not get so much work out here.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Thomas MacWood

Re: Herbert Fowler New
« Reply #40 on: July 19, 2008, 06:33:31 PM »
Marion, Ohio is relatively small town of 35,000. Its about 40 minutes north of Columbus. It is like every other non-descript small town in Ohio, yet in 1920 Marion CC was excepting plans to build a new 18-hole golf course from Fowler & Simpson, Herbert Strong and Willie Park-Jr.

Does anyone know why Marion drew the attention of such heavyweights?
« Last Edit: July 19, 2008, 07:04:38 PM by Tom MacWood »

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