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Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mixed bunker styles?
« on: May 24, 2003, 07:21:32 PM »
How many architects used/use a mix of bunker styles on the same hole (or throughout a whole course for that matter)?  I'm talking for example, one side of the green has a bunker with flashed sand while the other side is grass faced.  Anyone have any comments?  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Mixed bunker styles?
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2003, 07:36:39 PM »
Mark Fine,

Donald Ross at Seminole.

Emmett/Travis at GCGC.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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T_MacWood

Re: Mixed bunker styles?
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2003, 08:02:07 PM »
Pat
Please explain.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mixed bunker styles?
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2003, 08:07:47 PM »
Arcadia Bluffs, Warren Henderson with Rick Smith.  Bunkers inside the fairway mowing lines are generally sod walled and bunkers outside in rough areas are free form MacKenzie scab-like.  I personally like the look.
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Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mixed bunker styles?
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2003, 08:17:27 PM »
Mark Fine:

Doonbeg. Greg Norman. Basically the same story Dick Daley mentioned about Arcadia. Unlike Dick, I really don't like mixing bunker styles.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Tim Weiman

TEPaul

Re: Mixed bunker styles?
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2003, 02:50:17 AM »
Perhaps Gulph Mills G.C. is one of the first to actually restore mixed bunker styles--Donald Ross and Perry Maxwell (on at least one hole). At first some didn't understand that but what are you going to do--remove some of the coolest little Maxwell greenside bunkers around? That would have been madness, particularly since the particular Maxwell green-end served as the prototype of Maxwell's #7 green-end at ANGC.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »
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Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mixed bunker styles?
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2003, 06:01:23 AM »
Tom Paul,
Your example at Gulph Mills is a result of two different architects on site, correct?  

Pat,
I agree with Tom M, can you explain about Seminole?  Is that the Ross/Wilson combination?  It has been awhile since I played there but I remember most of the bunkers were fairly consistent grass faced in design.  I think #13 had some flashed sand on the back left bunkers for a visual impact but the greenside portions were still grass faced.  You don't see bunkers that face the golfer where one is flashed and one is not do you?

Dick,
What is the logic behind the mixed look at Arcadia?  I haven't seen it but sounds like you like it.  Seems a bit contrived to me but evidently it works.

Tim,
Does Norman's varying styles work well at Doonbeg?  Can you elaborate.

Bill,
I think the best bunkers are the ones well placed and asthetically pleasing.  


My personal feeling is that when I see varying bunker styles, especially on the same hole (eg. around a greensite) it leads me to believe the architecture has been tampered with.  It is surely the exception and not the rule.
Mark

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mixed bunker styles?
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2003, 08:21:50 AM »
Mark, I can only guess that Warren Henderson thought that the steep sod wall bunkers within the fairway confines was a look that gave tribute to that style found on links courses of Scotland.  The scabs in the rough out of fairway mowing lines at AB in many instances aren't very often in play.  But, because the faux dunes aren't exactly authentic, in my eye the scabs style seems to give the piled dirt making up these rugged dunes look a more real coastal appearance.  However, I also think that they are flat and scablike because being located in the rugged native dunes-rough, if you should get into one of them, a more recoverable shot is possible to get back to the fairway and back into the race.  If they had the very steep sod walls, and were located so many yards off the fairway in the rough, one might be there for a very long time slowing up play and making the course unfair.  

All, just speculation on my part.  Perhaps you can find an e-mail link to Mr Henderson and ask him. ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Mixed bunker styles?
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2003, 10:02:31 AM »
Tom MacWood & Mark Fine,

9th hole GCGC

2nd and 13th & 14th holes Seminole.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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T_MacWood

Re: Mixed bunker styles?
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2003, 10:41:08 AM »
Pat
Are you referring to the difference between Emmet's road hazard and Travis's bunkering? There are no doubt numerous examples of courses with bunkers of different styles created by different architects. Maybe the most famous example being the 10th at ANGC.

I'm still not clear on Seminole - old photos seem to indicate the bunkering was of a consistant style. And much flashier than most other Ross courses. He also use that style at Palm Beach CC - which looked to be a very interesting course.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Mixed bunker styles?
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2003, 02:10:26 PM »
Tom MacWood,

Re GCGC, no, I'm referencing the  left front green side flash bunker on #9 in contrast to the pit and grass faced bunkers on # 9.  TEPaul found that bunker fascinating.

With respect to Seminole my reply was based on my experience in playing the golf course, not looking at old photos.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mixed bunker styles?
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2003, 02:10:39 PM »
I personally like the idea of mixing bunker styling to a point. There still has to be harmony that ties the 18 holes together, but variety adds to memoriabliable, challenge, and certainly eye candy.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

T_MacWood

Re: Mixed bunker styles?
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2003, 02:51:56 PM »
The bunker you are referring to at GCGC was added long after Travis and Emmet had kicked the bucket.

I believe the question was "how many architects used/use a mix of bunker styles" - that is why I questioned your inclusion of Seminole where Ross built very bold flashed bunkers.

Architects that come to mind who built (build) diverse bunkers are Travis, Strong and Dye.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Mixed bunker styles?
« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2003, 02:57:57 PM »
Tom MacWood,

When was that bunker added on # 9, and who designed it ?

Regarding Seminole, there are/were grass faced as well as flash bunkers with the orginal golf course.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Willie_Dow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mixed bunker styles?
« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2003, 03:29:57 PM »
Mark

When you study the Flynn bunkers, many were shallow, or flat.  But he seemed to look forward to the splash of sand, which made them deeper.  What imagination!

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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T_MacWood

Re: Mixed bunker styles?
« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2003, 06:06:02 AM »
Pat
I have concentrated my research efforts at GCGC on pre-RTJ. I'm not sure who or exactly when...I do know it was sometime after 1952.

I have found a handful of old Seminole photos - Geoff Shackelford had one, Brad Klein had one (an aerial) and I've uncovered a couple on my own. They sure look like flashed bunkers to me....perhaps you have a different definition of a flashed bunker and a grass faced bunker. Whatever you want to call it...flashed or grass faced or a flash/grass hybrid...the style was consistent throughout the golf course.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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