[Melvyn Morrow]

Last year Alfie Ward (one of the great unsung heroes in the world of Golf) suggested that I should check out GCA.com. I found to my amazement that I enjoyed reading all the topics to the point that I read back over 100 pages.  I of course did not agree with ever opinion and it took some time to understand what IM, TOC, OTM & MHO meant.

After reading that wonderful post (I’m biased) by Peter Pallotta  titled “What was in Old Tom Morris Heart?” with comments from Tommy Naccarato (still missed by me for his kindness to a newbie), Mark Ferguson, Alfie (Mr Bret Maverick), R J Daley, SPDB, Tommy Williamson & J Morgan. I realised that I wanted to be a part of this great forum based upon golf course architecture, but with an overall view on golf across the ages.

I loved my involvement, throwing in my opinions and having friendly discussions on various aspects of course locations, cart, cart tracks and the other evils of modern day golf artificial aids, not to mention the Evil of most Evils - The No Walking Courses. Through these encounters I came into contact with many like minded people and even those who disagreed showed firm but well meaning alternative opinions reflecting very little malice.

I learnt that golf was indeed moving away from the game I was taught, the traditions apparently still being upheld, but in reality, that was not true. The Governing bodies are not actually controlling anything they are going along with the money. The ongoing debates re ball, clubs, and distance are still raging in various forms for over the last 50 years (look at the Times archives regards distance & the golf ball). What I see, to be honest I don’t like or agree with and I certainly do not believe it is progress. I don’t have a problem with modifying the way the game is played due to climate conditions (the use of carts on hill courses or in very hot locations), but they should be available as options and for those who want to walk then they should be allowed. As for cart tracks, I believe they should be concealed at the side of the course well out of view & of play, if not practical then that section of the track should be made to blend into the surrounding surface but suitable for carts.

As for my comments regards The Open, that is based upon history and the traditions of the game. I am sorry for those who feel that my comments are a slight against their Nation (they certainly are not), but the fact of the matter is that the modern game of golf was developed in Scotland and one of the major promoters of the game was Old Tom. In fact it was mainly Old Tom with his position as Keeper of the Green on The Old Course that made St Andrews the Home of the modern game of Golf.

The Open was introduce in 1860 but in truth not a real Open until 1861 when it was formally open to all comers. This developed into one of the Greatest Championships over the next 30 years, well before any other Open. For decades those taking part in The Open (as it has been known & acknowledge by the majority of the golfing world) have stated that it would be the culmination of their career to win. Those fortunate to win the Open Championship at St Andrews raise that accolade to the highest level. The feeling of walking down the Tom Morris 18th fairway to the Green knowing you are just minutes away from winning the Oldest Championship and lifting the Claret Jug in front of millions (including the TV audience) must be exhilarating.

I believed that GCA.com gives us the platform to freely express our opinions. By posting our comments it opens them up for others to read and reflect their opinions. I can accept disagreements because we are all individuals born (hopefully) with the right to free speech. However, we each should be careful (and I include myself) in actually trying to understand what exactly is being said and not to jump to conclusions. Alas, if the subject is close to our hearts, reason sometime abandons us and the normal safeguards are overruled, at times resulting in totally misreading or understanding the actual contents of the post or reply. I have allowed myself to fall into this trap on more than one occasion. But then I am human and regrettable will probably fall again at sometime in the future at the next unsuspecting hurdle. However I am most unhappy at trying to defend myself when accused of make a statement that I never made or if it is the product of someone’s interpretation of part of my post/reply. I try and follow the topic and comments made before jumping in with unsubstantiated statements of what I though someone meant.

So to - David Cronan’s reply No.111 Re: OT: Perry says no to Open Championship.

Points 6 Some guy named "Melvyn" is so disgusted by the fact that Perry is not playing in The Open that he takes to referring to Perry as "old and ugly enough to make his own mind up...", born from the fact, I suppose, that Perry is a decent enough person to honor his word.

My comment and if you search the topic you may well agree with me that I
“was not disgusted by the fact that Perry is not playing in the Open” as far as Perry is concerned I just don’t care if he plays or does not play at the Open, I was just voicing my opinion why he MAY not want to. I can understand the “old & ugly” comment being misunderstood, but it was not a criticism but a simple term to say Perry knows his own mind due to maturity.

Then we go to Point 8. David Cronan believes Melvyn to be a moron. Just because you have totally misread my replies I am deemed a Moron speaks volumes. No just about you but about how GCA.com is itself developing.

But is David Cronan finished, no he continues his reply No. 122

Dearest Melvyn,

I'm sorry that your educational background has not taught you to fully understand that in certain parts of the world, "I believe (fill in the blank) to be a moron" is a simple saying that, LOOSLEY translated, means "I don't agree with your nonsensical rantings."

No offense intended, my good man.

Kindest regards,
David

Take the piss by all mean David. But then you are not the only one to regards my valid comments/opinions as “nonsensical rantings”.

If I talk nonsense then that is down to my ignorance or perhaps to misspelling which is the result from my life long fight with dyslexia. As for your apology, it would be rather poor of me not to accept, but I wonder by the tone if you really are sincere. Whatever for the good of the site I accept with thanks and hope we can move forward.

However as for the comments by Richard Choi, reply 110

Quote from: Melvyn Morrow on July 14, 2008, 12:44:43 pm

The US Open, and Masters are great tournaments, and no disrespect is intended but IMHO the Open being the oldest is favoured by many of the players that enter. Plus the Open predates the US Open by 34/5 years but that’s just for those who like history.

So, by following your logic, it would be no disrespect to say that you cannot truly call yourself a golfer if you have never played Pine Valley, right? I mean, I don't think there is much disagreement (at least much less disagreement than about which major is the best) that Pine Valley is THE BEST course in the world, even over the Old Course.

How could you say that the Open is the best major when it HAS NOT and CANNOT be EVER BE played on the finest course in the world?

No disrespect though...

P.S. Do you think Greg Norman would trade those two British Open titles for two Masters jackets? I think he would.
   
Richard, that is your Opinion and you are entitled to it – how old are you?

As for Greg, I will e-mail him today and see if I can get a reply to your question, sorry you OPINION.

I recently posted a Topic on the 12th July titled “Satisfied with the response from UK Club & their Secretaries?”  I should have also included from Members of GCA.com.

So “Is GCA.com still a great forum for free expression & opinions?”

I have not as yet been able to get passed the nonsensical rantings to make up my mind.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Melvyn,

There is certainly some peer pressure here to conform to the views of the most vocal.  And some of those vocal opinions don't jive with the mainstream opinions of most golfers in many cases.

I guess if you don't agree, you are said to have some kind of "agenda."  Or, people use names to shout you down.  The funny thing is, I have met many of the vocals here, and they are quite nice, even if their internet personality is occaisionally offensive.

I think that's why so many participants announce they are leaving.  I myself just take unannounced breaks when it becomes too much.  And ignore certain threads, or force myself to just read for interest and not reply.  Or, type out a reply, but not send it.  (Didn't Lincoln advise to write and email and then delete it before sending? )

Let it roll off your back if you like most of what's here.  There were never any guarantees that you would like it all.  Or, maybe us Texas guys should just discuss architecture over a beer and forget this place.......they never talk about our new classic "Tumbleweed Hills" course anyway.  Nor do they discuss courses designed for the "Running Beauty Duck Hook."  Here in Texas, both are topics of great import......

[Brent Hutto]

Welcome to the next stage of CGA forum membership. Most of us initially come to the site and pick and choose from years worth of fascinating discussions. After that first few hours of bliss we can't help but think that every day we'll be able to tune in and find one or two scintillating discussions of either a course we love from a perspective we've never thought of or even better about some course or element of architecture that we didn't even know existed.

The fact is those topics have probably never occurred on a daily basis. And worse yet the accumulation of topics in the back pages covers most of the low-hanging fruit concerning the ideas and fact most interesting to the most people. So it gets harder and harder find anything new and scintillating in a mature forum such as this one has become.

Well, people are still going to post something aren't they? So the ratio of chaff to wheat ever increases and each day there seems to be more stuff that we really ought to just ignore or let pass. But a certain proportion of the time some new bit of provocation reawakens some old sore spot and we get recriminations and name calling rather than "free expression" with any meaningful connection to golf course architecture. Ignore it, there is no honor in it and ignored provocations pass rather quickly and quietly.

I must say, though, that you seem to choose somewhat provocative ways of expressing your own opinions quite frequently, Melvyn. Online forums tend to reduce civility to its least common denominator under the best of circumstances and in the particular case at hand I've observed that many of our USA participants either do not possess or choose not to utilize a knack for the subtle, sarcastic putdown so beloved of decently educated Englishmen. So what tends to happen is that a mild and in all likelihood benign tweak (what I think they call "taking the piss" or something) is met in response by rather unsightly namecalling or even an aggressive [expletive deleted] You or equivalent.

All of which can in fact be avoided by scrupulously sticking to golf course architecture rather than going far OT and/or addressing personalities (either of forum members or of long-dead heroes of GCA). But that takes a certain level of self-restraint beyond what one might exhibit in person during a friendly round of golf or after-round drinks. It's just an acknowledgment of how quickly discussions can get out of hand among a long-standing group of online acquaintances.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Jeff

What’s this, it news to me – golf has reached Texas WOW.

I knew that some Morrow’s had managed to get there, but I though
that had to do with some of the old Viking rape and pillage raids.

No, I take your point and actually agree good advice.


Brent

Yes, for my faults I tend to come across aggressive but you may find it hard to believe that for the most part that is not my intention. It has been mentioned before and I am trying to control that Devil in me. But the part of me that is still human is too weak and sometime the little Devil pops out (sometimes to the amusement of my wife, although not always to her satisfaction – yet another failing alas). But yes you are right, hopefully it will be seen less in the future.

[Mike Sweeney]

Melvin asked, “Is GCA.com still a great forum for free expression & opinions?” 

It would appear that you have answered your own question. You posted, got mad, reflected, came back with a more thoughtful post. Seems like it is working just fine! 

PS. I think I introduced Alfie Ward to GCA.com, so you can blame me!

[Ken Moum]

You asked, “Is GCA.com still a great forum for free expression & opinions?”

I would suggest that all of your examples indicate that it is as open and free as it can be.

It appears that you and all of the respondents you quoted are doing exactly that, expressing their opinions. One of the delights and devilments of online forums is that when you express strong opinions about something--such as calling out seemingly nice guy like Kenney Perry--you are inevitably going to hear equally strong opinions from the other side.

I have a quote hanging on my office wall that covers this situation perfectly:

"The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously." -- Hubert Humphrey

I try not to take anything I see on the Web too seriously, nor do I expect others to take me all that seriously.

K

[Garland Bayley]

Melvyn,

You are one of the freshest breaths to come on this forum in the last year. We could do with a lot more of you and a lot less of the David Cronans. To me calling someone a moron on the forum is a bit too Barneyesque.

State your case! Let your logic and facts stand out, and forget the name calling. I suspect those that resort to name calling simply do it out of a lack of quality in their arguments.

[George Pazin]

Yes, for my faults I tend to come across aggressive but you may find it hard to believe that for the most part that is not my intention. It has been mentioned before and I am trying to control that Devil in me. But the part of me that is still human is too weak and sometime the little Devil pops out (sometimes to the amusement of my wife, although not always to her satisfaction – yet another failing alas). But yes you are right, hopefully it will be seen less in the future.

This is more a reflection of the impersonal nature of the internet than it is of you, which is one of the greatest shortcomings of the internet and thus the site. The posters that question your motives, ideas, etc., don't see you face to face and don't know you well enough personally to realize that what sounds confrontational may simply be the inquiring mind of a curious individual. A discussion in person would likely be a lot more civilized.

My advice is always to think of the discussion as though you're sitting at the 19th with a few good friends - friends that feel comfortable saying, "Ah, you're full of !@#$!", knowing that you'll take it in good fun.

[Peter Pallotta]

Melvyn -

thanks for the compliment. And to answer your question, I think this little universe is unfolding exactly as it should, its bumps and bruises included.

I think your position/point of view "extreme", but in the best possible sense; calling it the stance of a "purist" and "traditionalist" is better and more accurate.

And since I tend to believe that the things in life that have value are those to which we GIVE value, in words and actions (or at least, are dependant on the fact that we DO give them value, in words and actions), I think it important that the purists and traditionalists state their views as often and as boldly as possible -- and that the more modern and more practical voices do the same.

There's the saying that goes something like "If not me, who? If not now, when?" I think I've made a hash out of that quote, but I hope you know what I mean.  

Thanks for your participation on this site.

Peter

 

[Michael Dugger]

When people can hide behind the shield of an internet moniker they always seem to have a penchant for acting rudely.

Just ignore it.  Discussions via a forum like this will never be 100% civilized. 

[John Kavanaugh]

Melvyn,

I don't think you understand the bond Kentuckians have with Perry.  David reacted no different than you would have if someone questioned the integrity of your family.

For this to be a forum of free expression & opinions we have to reserve the right to not like some people or not be liked ourselves.

Keeping on that subject...Do employees and members of private clubs have equal responsibilities to respect each other?

[Adam Clayman]

Be it impersonal modernity or some other virus affecting people's nature, I believe insights into people's character is as evident here as it is on the golf course. Snap judgments are seldom as perceptive as a more patient approach.  

Nice thread!

[George Pazin]

Melvyn,

You are one of the freshest breaths to come on this forum in the last year. We could do with a lot more of you and a lot less of the David Cronans. To me calling someone a moron on the forum is a bit too Barneyesque.

You must not read a lot of David's posts, he is always quite thoughtful. And, like almost all of us on here, his words can be taken out of context and distorted beyond original intent. As an example, you need only look at your own post!

[John Kavanaugh]

When people can hide behind the shield of an internet moniker they always seem to have a penchant for acting rudely.

Just ignore it.  Discussions via a forum like this will never be 100% civilized. 

I think David was posting under his real name.  I don't see how you call that hiding and myself find this written word to be potentially more damaging than verbal assaults.  

[cary lichtenstein]

Sme guys are just assholes and that's the way life is. The internet is an impersonal relationship tool, just as you would not shake the hand of someone who spits in your face, consider this guy the same on this forum if his comments are i nappropriate.

[Brent Hutto]

So just to make certain we're all on the same page...

Surely we can all agree that Melvyn is

full of !@#$!"

, can't we?

Or is this one of those electronically mediated wrong impressions 

[John Kavanaugh]

I don't know about you guys...but the last thing I would want is a written transcript of everything I say to people in real life. 

[Garland Bayley]

Melvyn,

You are one of the freshest breaths to come on this forum in the last year. We could do with a lot more of you and a lot less of the David Cronans. To me calling someone a moron on the forum is a bit too Barneyesque.

You must not read a lot of David's posts, he is always quite thoughtful. And, like almost all of us on here, his words can be taken out of context and distorted beyond original intent. As an example, you need only look at your own post!

OK, I should have written I would appreciate a lot less use of words like moron. And, not have written we need a lot less of the David Cronans. If you believe someone's arguments don't lack substance, write " I don't believe your arguments lack substance." To me, moron is not an acceptable abbreviation, and to me it is not acceptable in almost any context.

About the only acceptable context is to use it like Phil, "I am such a moron."

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Your question assumes that it once was. It's an incorrect assumption.

Anthony

[Richard Choi]

Melvin, I certainly respect that everyone has an opinion and they should be free to express it.

However, that also means that you will be judged for what you say.

I don't know how anyone can logically conclude that you are not slighting other major championship when you say that you cannot be a "true champion" unless you win The Open.

That is your opinion, you are entitle to that. But that still does not make it not denigrating to other majors.

That is like mes saying your mother is fat and ugly, but you should not be offended because it is just my opinion.

Words have meanings, when you express your opinions you should really read what you are saying.

[John Foley]

Richard - Thanks - Couldn't have said it any better.

Melvyn asks - “Is GCA.com still a great forum for free expression & opinions?”

The answer is absolutely.

It does become less of a friendly place when someone's personal opinions start to hinder / detract from the topic or the ability of others to chime in.

[Jay Flemma]

When people can hide behind the shield of an internet moniker they always seem to have a penchant for acting rudely.

Just ignore it.  Discussions via a forum like this will never be 100% civilized. 

Honestly, Mike, I don;t agree...I belong to another discussion board and we don't fight like we do here, simply because we all remember the same two rules - "don't say anything over the net that you wouldn't say if they were sitting across from you at dinner" and "think before you hit send."

[Garland Bayley]

Melvin, I certainly respect that everyone has an opinion and they should be free to express it.

However, that also means that you will be judged for what you say.

I don't know how anyone can logically conclude that you are not slighting other major championship when you say that you cannot be a "true champion" unless you win The Open.

That is your opinion, you are entitle to that. But that still does not make it not denigrating to other majors.

That is like mes saying your mother is fat and ugly, but you should not be offended because it is just my opinion.

Words have meanings, when you express your opinions you should really read what you are saying.

I don't believe your argument lacks substance. (very poor analogy)

[John Kavanaugh]

Let's not forget that, as always, this happened on an off topic discussion.  No matter what anyone says the OT is a cancer that is killing the site.

[tlavin]

 As for your apology, it would be rather poor of me not to accept, but I wonder by the tone if you really are sincere. Whatever for the good of the site I accept with thanks and hope we can move forward.

Melvyn,

 Quite honestly, it was my ignorance of not fullly grasping your "old and ugly" comment regarding Perry that led to my rantings.

Regards,
David Cronan

The old and ugly comment reminded me of a terrific one-liner by the Country Western Singer Kinky Friedman when he was running for Governor of Texas:  "I'm too young for Medicare and too old for women to care."

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