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Ian Larson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do trees make shade?
« Reply #25 on: July 15, 2008, 01:07:54 PM »
I was being sarcastic guys. I agree with Kalen and cant believe the thread is getting so much overthought. A light source with an object in its way creates shade. Anything after that is the adaptation of nature to the shade. Shade isnt there to act as a defense to the tree, its a mere "physical" result that occurs because of the sun. There is plenty of life underneath the canopy of a tree. Microbes, plants and animals. The adaptaion of nature is the "biological" result and the biology will always evolve. So to ask why trees still make shade and what good is it for a game we play is silly. Its like a kid asking why the sky is blue.

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do trees make shade?
« Reply #26 on: July 15, 2008, 01:10:18 PM »
Ian - To know Jaka (John K.) is to love Jaka.  He posts thoughts like this to spur discussion, which they do.  And they usually get around to golf course architecture.  Enjoy :)


Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do trees make shade?
« Reply #27 on: July 15, 2008, 01:21:11 PM »
Shade isnt there to act as a defense to the tree, its a mere "physical" result that occurs because of the sun. There is plenty of life underneath the canopy of a tree. Microbes, plants and animals.

That is not true. While it is true that the trees developed thick/wide foilage to maximize the surface area available for photosythesis, trying to snuff out the competition has also played a huge part.

For example, in the jungle, most trees are very tall and have very thick foilage at the very top of the canopy that blocks out most direct sunlight around the tree. If you cut down that tree, within days, you will see fierce competition among saplings growing in the newly sunny areas.
The very design of the high canopy trees in jungles are designed to minimize that competition for established trees.

While it is also true that there are many diverse ecology underneath that canopy, they usually have symbiotic relationship with the tall tree, minimizing competition for the tree.

There are many fascinating scientific papers on this and other subjects that deals with competition for survival among plants which we assume are very non-aggressive (and you cannot be further from the truth).


John Kavanaugh

Re: Why do trees make shade?
« Reply #28 on: July 15, 2008, 01:29:52 PM »
This thread is a direct result of playing a tournament this weekend on a course where trees are the number one architectural factor in play.  Having a late afternoon Sunday tee time, who doesn't on Sunday, I arrived early and sat under a tree waiting to go.  There you go...a GCA thread in the making.

One of the things that concerns many people on this site is how will golf courses be built on smaller pieces of land and remain challenging for the modern golfer.  The answer may lie in trees.  Is there any better device than trees when trying to make a 6000 yd course challenging and a fair test for all handicap ranges?

The deal breaker making trees the best are the benefits of shade...bunkers, water, fescue and wild greens all got something but none got shade.

Dave_Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do trees make shade?
« Reply #29 on: July 15, 2008, 01:31:45 PM »
Wow,

I'm shocked this thread even got 12 responses.....perhaps it is finally a sign of the apocalypse on GCA.com

Kalen:
Maybe JK is just losing it. ;) ;D ;D
Dave

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do trees make shade?
« Reply #30 on: July 15, 2008, 01:35:10 PM »
Wow,

I'm shocked this thread even got 12 responses.....perhaps it is finally a sign of the apocalypse on GCA.com

Kalen:
Maybe JK is just losing it. ;) ;D ;D
Dave
[/quote

Its all good Dave.

In light of Barney being a lifetime member of the HillBilly Tour, I think the question is not too far off.  ;)

Although I did tell him to stick to roads a few threads ago.  He seems extremely capable at building them.

John Kavanaugh

Re: Why do trees make shade?
« Reply #31 on: July 15, 2008, 02:10:11 PM »
I'm not going to apologize because I love shade.  I don't think I am alone in that love but have recently accepted the fact that because of my growing up as a road worker my fond memories of taking breaks under the shade of a tree come back to me each time I am on the course.  Few spaces are as barren of shade as the open road.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2008, 02:20:53 PM by John Kavanaugh »

Ian Larson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do trees make shade?
« Reply #32 on: July 15, 2008, 02:56:25 PM »
Richard,

As a former superintendent turned agronomist I thrive on plant physiology. You didnt get my point yet supported it at the same time. Of course a trees canopy is there for a reason and serves a purpose. The size of the canopy always equals the size of the root mass, because as you mentioned photosynthesis, enough photosynthesis is required to support the root mass through carbohydrate and protein production. The EFFECT of that canopy CAN provide less competition, but it doesnt ALWAYS work out that way. Most of the tree work done at my last course was eliminating and thinning out smaller trees directly around and under the larger, nicer trees so they could be accentuated.

When I said this....

The adaptaion of nature is the "biological" result and the biology will always evolve.

....that means if a tree is removed or foliage is permanently lost, like you said, the competition will take over. Nature has adapted to the loss of that tree or the growth of it.

The ability of a light source to create a shadow is in itself a physical abilty. All it takes is a light source and an object to block that light. Creating a shadow. Therefore the shadow doesnt exist for the plant. The plant exists, or doesnt exist, because of the occurrance of a shadow. So no, the de is not there as a defense for the tree. The tree is there because its seeking sunlight and at the same time casting a shadow in the sunlight. The biology around the tree adapted to the lack of sunlight and as a indirect result the tree lessened its competition.

...and after overthinking this myself the original question was why does shade still exist after years of evolution and its effect on agronomics.
Shade will always exist. As long as there is a sun and something in the way of the light waves. Agronomically, its a pain in the ass to the super. Architectually, courses do get overgrown and it gets ridiculous. But there are many cases where the architect plants or keeps the tree to serve strategically.

John Kavanaugh

Re: Why do trees make shade?
« Reply #33 on: July 15, 2008, 03:17:45 PM »


The ability of a light source to create a shadow is in itself a physical abilty. All it takes is a light source and an object to block that light. Creating a shadow. Therefore the shadow doesnt exist for the plant. The plant exists, or doesnt exist, because of the occurrance of a shadow. So no, the de is not there as a defense for the tree. The tree is there because its seeking sunlight and at the same time casting a shadow in the sunlight. The biology around the tree adapted to the lack of sunlight and as a indirect result the tree lessened its competition.


It is not accurate to compare casting a shadow to creating shade.  Shade is a cooler more protective medium.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shade
« Last Edit: July 15, 2008, 03:28:33 PM by John Kavanaugh »

Jim Nugent

Re: Why do trees make shade?
« Reply #34 on: July 15, 2008, 03:53:39 PM »
Can anyone explain why after millions of years of evolution trees still create shade and what benefits it brings to golf agronomy. 

Evolution takes millions of years to do its work.  Golf courses have only been around for a few hundred.  Not enough time. 

If you believe in evolution, that is.  Which I don't. 

Ian Larson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do trees make shade?
« Reply #35 on: July 15, 2008, 03:53:49 PM »
John,

Actually it is. That is if we are talking about golf course agronomy and not the rain forest. If there is an area on the golf course that is deeply shaded all day, never gets light. Then chances are that its far off the the line of play is and you should be penalized with no turf, tree roots and scrub brush. If we are still talking about golf courses then a casted shadow can be accurately compared to shade. When a club pays thousands of dollars to do a shade study, the whole study is based on the shadows that are casted in areas that require great turf conditions in relation to the time of day. Ultimately trying to figure out if those areas are getting enough quality sunlight for the grass plant to synthesize sufficiently. A green that never gets sunlight before lunchtime and is in the shade again at dinner time will always perform differently than one that gets morning light.

If were talking about finding a good shade tree then heck yeah "shade" is great to cool off. But when it comes down to the original topic....

"I was sitting under a tree this weekend enjoying the shade and wondered..what good is it.  Can anyone explain why after millions of years of evolution trees still create shade and what benefits it brings to golf agronomy.  Also, what are examples of really fine shade in golf?"

....its not good for agronomy. Whether its deep shade or a casted shadow. Either slows down plant synthesis. But im not for cutting down all the trees, theres an art of management to it. Im all for not building a green site where its not possible to get good sunlight.

And as a closer my favorite example of fine shade is under the Bogart tree beside 12 green at Riviera.
   

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do trees make shade?
« Reply #36 on: July 15, 2008, 03:59:49 PM »


The ability of a light source to create a shadow is in itself a physical abilty. All it takes is a light source and an object to block that light. Creating a shadow. Therefore the shadow doesnt exist for the plant. The plant exists, or doesnt exist, because of the occurrance of a shadow. So no, the de is not there as a defense for the tree. The tree is there because its seeking sunlight and at the same time casting a shadow in the sunlight. The biology around the tree adapted to the lack of sunlight and as a indirect result the tree lessened its competition.


It is not accurate to compare casting a shadow to creating shade.  Shade is a cooler more protective medium.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shade

John,

Very nice edit job in wikipedia even though you originally spelled umbrella wrong.

Next time register so it isn't painfully easy to track your IP back to Avenue Broadband in Vincennes, Indiana.   ;D

John Kavanaugh

Re: Why do trees make shade?
« Reply #37 on: July 15, 2008, 04:07:16 PM »
When researching shade I found Wikipedia to be lacking in its coverage.

John Kavanaugh

Re: Why do trees make shade?
« Reply #38 on: July 15, 2008, 04:15:30 PM »

And as a closer my favorite example of fine shade is under the Bogart tree beside 12 green at Riviera.
   

I'm afraid that tree is too close to the green, and on the incorrect side, to be much of a shade tree.  It seems to be a bit thin on leaves and would most likely result in a bonk on the head.  A good shade tree needs to be on the exit side of a green.

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do trees make shade?
« Reply #39 on: July 16, 2008, 12:30:46 AM »
I like it when a nut job runs circles around the intellectuals......reminds me of a Jack Nicholson movie.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Ian Larson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do trees make shade?
« Reply #40 on: July 16, 2008, 12:53:36 AM »
i feel like ive been punked...

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do trees make shade?
« Reply #41 on: July 16, 2008, 01:19:14 AM »
The forecast for Mullen, NE tomorrow is 95 degrees.  Tough to spend an entire day in that heat without any shade...

My favorite tree in golf is not even really in play: the tree between the clubhouse and 18th green on the Old Course at Sunningdale.  Perfect place to sit and watch people finishing on the Old.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do trees make shade?
« Reply #42 on: July 16, 2008, 09:18:36 AM »
Why do trees make shade?

What else is a tree gonna do all day
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do trees make shade?
« Reply #43 on: July 16, 2008, 10:30:39 AM »
When researching shade I found Wikipedia to be lacking in its coverage.


Enlighten the world to your ways, become a contributor and editor ...
"... and I liked the guy ..."

John Kavanaugh

Re: Why do trees make shade?
« Reply #44 on: July 16, 2008, 10:39:15 AM »
When researching shade I found Wikipedia to be lacking in its coverage.


Enlighten the world to your ways, become a contributor and editor ...

I did add the following which I believe to be accurate and helpful to anyone interested in shade:

Shade offers relief to golfers and sportsmen of many types. Careful consideration must be taken when removing trees near tees and other clog points on a golf course routing. It has been shown that the shade from a natural tree can be several degrees cooler than that provided by artificial structures or umbrellas.

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