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B. Mogg

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smallest greens?
« on: July 13, 2008, 11:18:23 PM »
What would be the smallest green (individual) and smallest set of greens (average all 18) on a championship course?
Would the smallest set be at Pebble - anyone in the treehouse have any idea what they would average? Cheers.
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Richard Hetzel

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Re: smallest greens?
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2008, 11:33:46 PM »
Not sure about the championship course aspect in regard to smallest greens, BUT, this just might be the smallest green ever. Tiny is understated here!


Great Dunes Course - Jekyll Island, Georgia 2007
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mike_beene

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Re: smallest greens?
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2008, 11:38:53 PM »
Overall it has to be Lakeside.
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James Bennett

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Re: smallest greens?
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2008, 12:03:31 AM »
Quote from: mike_beene on July 13, 2008, 11:38:53 PM
Overall it has to be Lakeside.

Beat me to it Mike.  2500 sq feet average (so I was told).  I can believe that.  I know what a sub 3000 sq foot green looks like at my home course (tiny) and Lakeside (Los Angeles)was smaller again!

If they 'restored' the greens out towards the surrounding bunkers by removing the rough collars they might reach nearly 3000 sq feet.   

James B
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Scott Szabo

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Re: smallest greens?
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2008, 12:05:27 AM »
As Adam can attest to, the municipal course in Holyoke has the smallest I've ever seen, but it won't meet the definition of a championship course in anyone's book.
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Tom_Doak

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Re: smallest greens?
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2008, 08:51:05 AM »
Brett:

The Tour pros' three favorite courses on Tour -- Pebble Beach, Riviera, and Harbour Town -- used to be the three smallest sets of greens on Tour also.

Riviera's had shrunk over the years and some of them have been expanded now.  Harbour Town's were tiny to begin with, and a few have been enlarged because they couldn't handle 60,000 rounds per year very well.  Pebble's are still very small.
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Ken Moum

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Re: smallest greens?
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2008, 11:46:08 AM »
Among "Champsionship" courses, Pebble's are still listed as averaging 3,500 square feet

http://www.gcsaa.org/news/TournamentFactSheetsDetails.aspx?courseID=199&eventID=95&selectedYear=2008

Harbour Town lists theirs @ 3,700 and Riviera says theirs are 5,000.

I think this statement from our Tournament Fact Sheets is still true:

"Average tour green size (sq. ft.): The average green size on the professional tours is approximately 6,000 square feet, ranging from 3,500 sq.ft at Pebble Beach Golf Links, Pebble Beach, Calif. to 9,000 sq.ft. at The Rail Golf Club, Springfield, Ill."

IIRC, Champions are ~10,000 sq. ft.,  but it's not a regular Tour stop.
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PCCraig

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Re: smallest greens?
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2008, 12:43:17 PM »
TCC-Brookline.

I'm not sure I have ever seen a smaller green on a par-4 than #4 at TCC. While there are a few larger greens, the majoirty are small, and play smaller due to large slopes.
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Kyle Henderson

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Re: smallest greens?
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2008, 12:46:46 PM »
I can't think of a smaller green on tour than the 17th at Pebble, but I'm not sure if it has the smallest total putting surface for all 18 holes. If not, it must be close.
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Steve Lapper

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Re: smallest greens?
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2008, 02:28:47 PM »
Will soon be the new 18 at Trump Bedminster. Most of the tee-boxes are bigger than the greens!
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JWL

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Re: smallest greens?
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2008, 03:01:30 PM »
Mr. Mogg
The following is a list of the greens at PB as of 1997.   Approximately 800 sq ft was added to the 18th green when we built the new 5th hole.   I don't know of any green size changes since then, but there could have been.
Hole       Sq footage
  1               3646
  2               3679
  3               4107
  4               3248
  5               3924
  6               4308
  7               3120
  8               2509
  9               3189
 10              3666
 11              2493
 12              3552
 13              3623
 14              3309
 15              3575
 16              3986
 17              4226
 18              4282
 PG1            4146
 PG2            3528

This is a total square footage of 64442 for the course and an average of 3580 per green.
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J_ Crisham

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Re: smallest greens?
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2008, 10:04:22 PM »
Harbour Towns greens not only are very small but the overhanging trees make them even tinier because of the decreased angles of attack. This is not the case at Pebble. Have not played TCC. Jack
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Brian Cenci

Re: smallest greens?
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2008, 10:16:31 PM »
Not a championship venue but Flushing Valley Country Club in Flushing, MI has the smallest by a long shot of any I've played.  I'd say they're in the 2000 s.f. range average.


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ChipOat

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Re: smallest greens?
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2008, 10:48:32 AM »
I haven't played Lakeside but I have played Pebble.

It seemed to me when I played it (just once) that the North Course at LA Country Club had the smallest greens I'd ever seen on a true championship layout.

Are Pebble's actually smaller?
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CJ Carder

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Re: smallest greens?
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2008, 04:58:21 PM »
4th at Spyglass?  It's length may make up for it's overall size, but it's width is unbelievable, even if you're just standing there looking at it in person.
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KBanks

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Re: smallest greens?
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2008, 05:58:02 PM »
Does anyone know the square footage of the eighth green at Pine Valley? I recall it as the smallest green there, but I could be wrong.

Regardless, it seems an incredibly small target, due to the green surrounds and the topography of the approach.

Ken
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James Bennett

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Re: smallest greens?
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2008, 06:41:55 PM »
Ken

both greens on #8 at Pine Valley are small.  My guess is less than 2500 sq feet - perhaps 2200 but purely an educated guess. 

James B

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KBanks

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Re: smallest greens?
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2008, 07:53:45 PM »
James,

I checked the Finegan book and of course it has the figures: left green 2,977, right 2,685 sq ft.

The fact that Pebble #8 is smaller than both counterparts at PVGC is astounding to me. Despite the length of the approach, I would have said 8 at PB is larger.

Ken
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James Bennett

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Re: smallest greens?
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2008, 07:57:33 PM »
Ken

I played the right green.  It was small.  Perhaps I'll visit planometer later tonight and see whether I can get a measure on a couple of Lakeside greens - perhaps they are 'bigger' than I imagine as well.

James B
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Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

KBanks

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Re: smallest greens?
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2008, 08:13:36 PM »
James,

Perception is indeed reality.

Perhaps an additional factor which causes the impression of Pine Valley 8 as so small is that the preceding greens are all a good deal larger, albeit dramatically contoured.

Ken
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Tim Gavrich

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Re: smallest greens?
« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2008, 11:28:56 PM »
I'd love to know what the average green sizes are at the nine-hole Sharon CC in Sharon, CT, the nine-hole Lake Waramaug CC in New Preston, CT, and the nine-hole Fenwick GC in the borough of Fenwick, CT.
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James Bennett

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Re: smallest greens?
« Reply #21 on: July 16, 2008, 07:03:31 AM »
Lakeside (Los Angeles, a Max Behr design) has (had?) very small greens.  The course is set on 120 acres.  Using Planimeter (www.acme.com/planimeter) I get the following green sizes.  I expect the measurements (which rely on my plotting the edge of greens with a dozen or so points) could be out by up to 10%.  However, 10% of less than 200 sq feet is still a small green!  The average green size (according to my measures) comes out to 2750 sq feet, which is not far off the claimed 2500 sq feet above!

1   2950
2   3470
3   1900
4   1840
5   3100
6   2270
7   4000
8   4250
9   2600

10   2160
11   2340
12   2140
13   2100
14   4300
15 a   2150 short 3
15 b   1900 mid length 3
16   3450
17   2970
18   2400
   
average   2752
   
practice  5700 - the biggest green on the course!

Now to check Pine Valley #8a and b and Pebble Beach #8 using the same method.

James B
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James Bennett

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Re: smallest greens?
« Reply #22 on: July 16, 2008, 07:37:02 AM »
Pebble Beach had a light mist over the course when the planimeter maps were taken.  Affected the #7 green (a rough estimate is 2700 sq feet) and #8 green (perhaps 3400 sq feet)  However, these are +/-20% given the detail available with the mist.  Pebble #9 was ctrystal clear - you could have mesured the fringe if you wanted to the magnification that was possible.  3500 sq feet on #9.

Pine Valley 8 left worked out to 3000 sq feet, but with abrupt fall-offs, whilst 8right was slightly smaller at 2600 sq feet, again with abrupt fall-offs.

I can't believe how small some of the Lakeside greens are in comparison to what are small greens at other greater clubs.  And the Lakeside greens aren't flat, nor slow either!

James B
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Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)
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