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JWinick

  • Karma: +0/-0
Golf v. Tennis
« on: July 05, 2008, 08:38:38 AM »
Being the major country club sports, golf and tennis have always had somewhat of a rivalry.   In the 1970s during the tennis boom, tennis surpassed golf in popularity.   In the 1980s golf regained its supremacy while tennis faded.   

This shift was apparent to me last Friday when I played an uninspiring Chicago-suburb private club.   Three tennis courts without nets sat empty with weeds growing through the cracks.   Personally, I grew up a tennis player and captained my high school team.   Now, I rarely play.   Why has golf dominated this rivalry?

1. Architecture
- The 1980s began a period of massive construction of new golf courses.   While we can all criticize some of the designs, they were clearly an improvement upon the courses of the prior decades.   New golf courses attract interest to the game.

2. Real Estate
- If you build tennis courts, the homes around it will not sell at a premium.   Golf courses sell real estate.   

3. Demographics
- An aging population with more wealthy people seems to favor golf.   While I know 90-year olds who still play doubles, many give up the game and concentrate on golf as they get into retirement age.

4. Social
- No one's inked a business deal over a tennis match.   There's really little time for idle chitchat.  Four hours on a golf course gives you plenty of time to build relationships.

5. Golf's handicap system allows you to play with anybody
- Tennis is painful if you don't have two people of somewhat equal abilities, which is hard to find.  I'm a member of a Chicago-city gym that has 9 tennis courts.   I only can think of two people that I feel like playing against.  With golf, the only requirement for me as a playing partner is pace-of-play.  Shoot,  I have a great time playing with my mom.   
 
6. Technology
- Tennis racket technology has killed the serve-and-volley game, or any finesse game completely.   You have to serve hard and stay at the baseline and pound forehands and backhands, which is less exciting than a McEnroe-Connors match.   With golf, yes, technology is threatening the viability of some classics for tournament play, but most golfers love the new equipment and the ruling bodies have slowed it down.

7. Golf has expanded beyond its roots
- Sure, there are hundreds of courses that the average golfer doesn't have a prayer of playing, but guys like Arnold  Palmer and Tiger Woods have expanded the game beyond the blue-blazer crowd.   The USGA, by holding US Opens at places like Torrey Pines and Bethpage, has done a great job promoting the game.   Tennis is seen by more people as the elitist game.   

8. Golf's more fun
- Some of the best tennis players in the world (Ivan Lendl for one) are avid golfers.   I don't know of one pro golfer who plays much tennis.   Could it be that golf is just more fun?  I agree strongly.

Well, that's a stab at it.   Discuss.   

« Last Edit: July 05, 2008, 08:52:13 AM by JWinick »

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf v. Tennis
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2008, 08:43:50 AM »
You can't go play tennis at some architecturally significant tennis court - they're all really the same.  I can't imagine why somebody would go on vacation just to play at a special court.

Plus, many of the professionals are pretty boring.  The constant screaming technique should be banned.  Maria S is a wonderful player, but I just HATE those screams on every shot.


Carl Rogers

Re: Golf v. Tennis
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2008, 10:05:53 AM »
As a casual observer of tennis and an avid golfer (bias bias), I think the 'threshold of fun' with tennis is a lot lower if the opponent runs as fast you do, can hit the ball as hard as you can .... and so forth.  Time wise tennis is a more flexible game.

Golf is a terribly hard game and it takes a real effort just to start playing reasonably and thus have some fun.  I think that and the time problem is the real reason why so many each year start to play golf then quit.

TEPaul

Re: Golf v. Tennis
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2008, 10:07:57 AM »
jwinick:

In my opinion, much of the reason for the semi-demise in the popularity of tennis in America has to do with the demise of the national organization that once controlled and oversaw tennis much as the USGA always has in American golf.

That was the old USLTA and the fact is it was a whole lot more important and dominant and pervasive than whatever the organization is now that evolved from it.

When a game like tennis loses the powerful and pervasive GRASSROOTS structure the old USLTA once provided the game will inevitably slip and decline in popularity. The point is the competing professional organizations that came up back then to challenge the dominance of the old USLTA just cannot have the same kind of "amateur" grassroots effect and influence the old USLTA once had in tennis.

Some claim that kind of loss can be overcome by the idea of "open" tennis all the way down into the grassroots level but, I, for one, do not believe the "open" concept can ever do something like that in a grassroots way like an association like the old USLTA once could.

However, one must also realize that the lines and distinctions between between "amateurism" vs "professionalism" today are nothing at all like they were back then in both tennis and golf.

Tim Bert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf v. Tennis
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2008, 10:15:22 AM »
I think you are leaving off one major point:

The transition of America to a lazy population with obesity rates rapidly climbing.  It's hard to really enjoy tennis at a high level without being in great physical shape.  Our society raises children on video games and TV instead of outdoors and in parks.  Golfers are afforded the option of carts, GPS monitors, laser range finders, and all other cool gadgets that allow us to not only avoid walking the course but also avoid walking to the nearest sprinkler head to check the yardage.

Full disclosure - I haven't played tennis in 15 years so I'm not exactly mourning the decline of tennis.  I too am lazy; though I still walk when playing golf 90%+ of the time. 

I realize there are exceptions to this rule, but I think this has largely contributed to the decline of tennis as well.

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf v. Tennis
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2008, 10:22:44 AM »
I believe Sergio Garcia is a decent tennis player.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf v. Tennis
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2008, 04:32:06 PM »
What's interesting is that the reasons I always hear (and say) for the declining popularity of golf is that it's too expensive and takes too much time.

Contrast that with tennis - you can pick up a racket at almost any garage sale or on craigslist for cheap, a tube of balls costs less than a sleeve of golf balls (and are harder to lose), and many cities (or high schools) maintain courts that can be played upon for little or no fee. And tennis is much more flexible as regards the amount of time the game takes to play, in fact an epic professional five-set match takes about the same time as 18 weekend holes at the local muni.

But golf is STILL more popular than tennis. Is it that tennis is still considered totally uncool by younger kids? Or is it just that golf is a better game, regardless of its higher expense and greater time-sucking capabilities? I'll say this, for what it's worth. My kids like to play on the Wii, and the tennis game on that platform is their favorite, while they don't care so much for the golf. This morning they ASKED to watch Serena and Venus Williams play the Wimbledon final.............
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf v. Tennis
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2008, 07:26:46 PM »
Being the major country club sports, golf and tennis have always had somewhat of a rivalry.   In the 1970s during the tennis boom, tennis surpassed golf in popularity.   In the 1980s golf regained its supremacy while tennis faded.   

This shift was apparent to me last Friday when I played an uninspiring Chicago-suburb private club.   Three tennis courts without nets sat empty with weeds growing through the cracks.   Personally, I grew up a tennis player and captained my high school team.   Now, I rarely play.   Why has golf dominated this rivalry?

1. Architecture
- The 1980s began a period of massive construction of new golf courses.   While we can all criticize some of the designs, they were clearly an improvement upon the courses of the prior decades.   New golf courses attract interest to the game.

2. Real Estate
- If you build tennis courts, the homes around it will not sell at a premium.   Golf courses sell real estate.   

3. Demographics
- An aging population with more wealthy people seems to favor golf.   While I know 90-year olds who still play doubles, many give up the game and concentrate on golf as they get into retirement age.

4. Social
- No one's inked a business deal over a tennis match.   There's really little time for idle chitchat.  Four hours on a golf course gives you plenty of time to build relationships.

5. Golf's handicap system allows you to play with anybody
- Tennis is painful if you don't have two people of somewhat equal abilities, which is hard to find.  I'm a member of a Chicago-city gym that has 9 tennis courts.   I only can think of two people that I feel like playing against.  With golf, the only requirement for me as a playing partner is pace-of-play.  Shoot,  I have a great time playing with my mom.   
 
6. Technology
- Tennis racket technology has killed the serve-and-volley game, or any finesse game completely.   You have to serve hard and stay at the baseline and pound forehands and backhands, which is less exciting than a McEnroe-Connors match.   With golf, yes, technology is threatening the viability of some classics for tournament play, but most golfers love the new equipment and the ruling bodies have slowed it down.

7. Golf has expanded beyond its roots
- Sure, there are hundreds of courses that the average golfer doesn't have a prayer of playing, but guys like Arnold  Palmer and Tiger Woods have expanded the game beyond the blue-blazer crowd.   The USGA, by holding US Opens at places like Torrey Pines and Bethpage, has done a great job promoting the game.   Tennis is seen by more people as the elitist game.   

8. Golf's more fun
- Some of the best tennis players in the world (Ivan Lendl for one) are avid golfers.   I don't know of one pro golfer who plays much tennis.   Could it be that golf is just more fun?  I agree strongly.

Well, that's a stab at it.   Discuss.   



I think your point #5 is huge.  Somewhat related to that point is this one--while you can enjoy golf alone, you really can't with tennis!

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf v. Tennis
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2008, 08:34:27 PM »
Agreed re #5, there is absolutely no handicapping of tennis. The better player wins every time.

By contrast, my wife and I have golf matches that are fun so long as I give her too many shots!

Brent Hutto

Re: Golf v. Tennis
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2008, 08:55:27 PM »
Tennis is a vigorous, aerobic game of strength, exertion and endurance played most often on a paved surface. Golf is a slow-paced walk on a grassy surface that consists mostly of the intervals between brief moments of mild activity.

There are probably 5-10 times as many people interested in a good walk (spoiled or not) through a parkland setting as have any interest at all in getting sweaty and out of breath. So you have a huge difference in potential appeal right there.

Playing golf by yourself or in the company of other golfers with whom you are not competing is just about as much fun as having a competitive game. For some people it's even more fun. Tennis brings no joy whatsoever without an opponent. Then add the long odds of finding someone to play against who matches your ability level and it's something that basically requires organized pairing/flighting to work at all. Imagine if the only way you could play golf is in a flighted match-play tournament with no handicapping or else not play at all.

BONUS REASON
Both activities suffer from being boring as hell to watch if you're not a participant. But at least you can doze off during a golf telecast and not lose track of the "action".

J_ Crisham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf v. Tennis
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2008, 10:22:10 PM »
Jon, I feel I could have scored better  Saturday at OFCC if you guys let me use a tennis raquet! ;D Actually I would have preferrd drinking rum and cokes by your pool and appreciating the nonobese bodies -females I must add. In all seriousness I think tennis is dead in this country-golf is stagnant due to the tight economy but will rebound.   Jack
   
    I would also agree with Chris Cupit's thoughts-he is a plus 2 and put up with a hacker like me for 3 days-although by the second day he started drinking more in my presence! Golfers of all abilities can play together as long as they move along.

JWinick

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf v. Tennis
« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2008, 10:38:53 PM »
Jack,

I think you're right about tennis.  There really is no way to drink and play tennis at the same time.   I've seen guys drink 10 on the back nine and play lights out.   The tough part is lightweights like me fall apart if I drink even just one beer.   Recently, I lost a match in which I was 4-up through 8 to a guy chugging budweisers.   I had one drink during a rain delay, lost my focus, while he had 10 and regained his. 

However, precisely because a fat drunk can play well, golf sometimes loses sports street-cred.   Golfers are arguably in as good of shape as any other, particularly older golfers.   One of the guys we played with is in as good shape as any 60-year old I've ever met.

But, I'll join you drinking rum-and-cokes after the round! 



Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf v. Tennis
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2008, 03:40:45 AM »
I enjoy beating balls on the range as part of my fascination with this sport.  Circuit training and playing returns against a machine does not have the same appeal.
Let's make GCA grate again!

Kevin Pallier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf v. Tennis
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2008, 03:57:51 AM »
Agreed re #5, there is absolutely no handicapping of tennis. The better player wins every time.

Bill- depends on how many points start you give ? or how starting at 40 love down can affect one's game ? but yes in general you're right - handicapping is much easier sans golf.

The biggest plus in golf over tennis is that you dont need an opponent to play the game  ;)

Wind makes golf interesting - wind makes tennis painfull and sometimes unbearable.

You can play golf in the rain if you're really keen - you can try to play tennis in the rain if you're really stupid

One plus for tennis over golf though - I found I was much fitter playing the former  ;D

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf v. Tennis
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2008, 06:26:57 AM »
I think Tom Paul or Brad Klein or Geoff Shack or someone once pointed out that tennis is ahead of golf on an evolutionary scale.  Tennis transformed from a finesse to a power game 20-30some years ago.  With that transformation every shot is now simply nuked - volleys have become shorter and shorter.  The lob and drop shots are becoming a lost art.  The crowd excitement at tennis matches is closely associated to the length and richness of volleys.  With volleys becoming shorter the tennis viewer has simply lost interest.

Golf is marching down the same path...

JC 

Matthew Rose

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf v. Tennis
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2008, 10:12:09 AM »

As a casual observer of tennis who fondly remembers the days of watching McEnroe go off his nut at Wimbledon, I have to say that tennis has really gotten boring in the last 10 years... I don't know if that is as much the demise of the careers of Agassi, Sampras, et all as much as just the game itself.

I was watching one of the Williams' against the surprise Chinese player, and basically the Williams sister won solely because every other serve was an ace. She just sat back on her serve and flung bullets at her opponent all afternoon. Anytime she got drawn into an extended rally, the Chinese girl would usually win the point.

Generally I think I enjoy women's tennis more these days, because there tends to be more service breaks. It seems that whenever you watch a men's match these days, as soon as there's a service break the set is basically over.
American-Australian. Trackman Course Guy. Fatalistic sports fan. Drummer. Bass player. Father. Cat lover.

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf v. Tennis
« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2008, 02:06:14 PM »
Golf and tennis are so different.  I played both competitively and love to watch either on TV, particularly the majors.  The Wimbledon finals going on right now is outstanding tennis by extremely fit, fantastic athletes.

And now, finally, Wimbledon is being broadcast in high-def here in the USA.  Here are some frame grabs from today's final match:




@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf v. Tennis
« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2008, 04:26:16 PM »
Golf and tennis are so different.  I played both competitively and love to watch either on TV, particularly the majors.  The Wimbledon finals going on right now is outstanding tennis by extremely fit, fantastic athletes.

And now, finally, Wimbledon is being broadcast in high-def here in the USA.  Here are some frame grabs from today's final match:


 


I almost didn't recoginze who this was without his hand back there....
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf v. Tennis
« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2008, 05:54:28 PM »
Like golf, tennis in HD is really great.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf v. Tennis
« Reply #19 on: July 06, 2008, 05:57:56 PM »
If I had someone to play with I'd play more tennis.  It is getting more difficult to find guys I would
like to play with.  My kids are grown and gone and other guys my age have quit.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf v. Tennis
« Reply #20 on: July 06, 2008, 07:32:16 PM »
It doesn't amount to a hill of beans, but if you thought the US Open theatrics of Ti-Rocco was good, the recently completed Wimbledon gentlemen's (!) final was every bit as good of television, IMO.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf v. Tennis
« Reply #21 on: July 06, 2008, 09:48:52 PM »
There are no golfers who grunt on every stroke. Grunting should be against the rules in tennis. ;D
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

JWinick

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf v. Tennis
« Reply #22 on: July 06, 2008, 10:56:12 PM »
Yes, grunting is annoying.  But, I must confess that I am guilty of an occasional man-grunt during a strong drive.   However, I can assure you that my grunt is met with great enthusiasm by my playing partners. 

Phil Benedict

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf v. Tennis
« Reply #23 on: July 07, 2008, 09:13:53 AM »
Tennis peaked in the US during the playing primes of two charismatic American men who were both jerks - Connors and McEnroe.  It peaked both in terms of participation and interest.  The decline in participation can probably be explained by the aging of the population.  Only a small percentage of people over 50 can still play singles and enjoy it, for example.  I don't think technology has had an adverse effect on participation.  I think modern raquets improved the game for recreational players, more so than technology improved recreational golf.

Interest in the US is down because (1) the last dominant American (Sampras) lacked charisma and (2) Americans are no longer competitive in top-level men's play.  Imagine the interest in yesterday's match if one or both of those players were American?  Without Tiger Woods interest in golf would be vestigial or worse.

The European development system attracts superior athletes who are willing to forego a normal teenage existence for tennis success.  American tennis is not getting the  best athletes, perhaps because there are more opportunities for athletic success here or because young tennis players are unwilling to make the same sacrifices international players willingly embrace.  The United States is at risk for becoming like Britain in tennis, hoping for a champion to emerge. 

A kid I know had Ivan Lendl on his bag in US Junior qualifying last week.  The idea of a 8-time Grand Slam winner caddying for a kid is a little eccentric but also very appealing.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2008, 10:02:36 AM by Phil Benedict »

John Kavanaugh

Re: Golf v. Tennis
« Reply #24 on: July 07, 2008, 09:36:43 AM »
Mythbusters proved that grunting does provide a burst of energy that increases performance.  For those of you who do not think tennis architecture makes a difference you have never played on clay or grass.  I have not been lucky enough to play on grass but I do remember my first match on clay as well as any first time golf experience.  You may have even heard during the Wimbleton coverage the term "Courses for horses."

I was lucky enough to attend Super Saturday during the 2002 US Open and am convinced that center court at Flushing Meadows does not play like my local public court.  I see two faults in tennis...One being that balls get old very fast and two the lack of electronically defined boundries.  I hate having to make my own calls of in or out and needing to buy new balls everytime I play.

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