[Tom_Doak]

We discussed this idea a few months back, but now Mike Davis has given it some cachet -- the idea of playing some holes from the forward and middle tees during a round, instead of playing everything from the back. 

I saw it 26 years ago at Carnoustie, where on any given day they gave daily-fee players six holes from the ladies' tees, six holes from the men's tees, and six holes from the Open Championship tees.  You could play the same course three days in a row and experience three completely different set-ups.  I also recall that's what Pete Dye was trying to set up at Kiawah for the Ryder Cup, but they just played it from most of the way back, 7700 yards at sea level.   

I've always been a fan of playing mix-and-match tees.  I would build longer courses with multiple tees more often if I thought courses would use them correctly, and if it weren't for the insistence of clients and state golf associations to measure them from all the way back and essentially challenge golfers to play from them.  Our free-form tees at Ballyneal and Sebonack are intended to encourage such moves.

For those of you involved at your local clubs, TRY THIS AT HOME.  Find four or five holes which would be more interesting from the middle or forward tees, and encourage the powers that be to set the course up that way.

[Sean Leary]

When my club outside Seattle opened, there was one set of tee markers set out every day in this format. It lasted one year before complaints caused the idea to be withdrawn and now there are 3 each day.

I think players feel that a low score from a set of combo tees cheapens the accomplishment. And that is too bad.....

[JNagle]

Tom,

This is something every club should be doing and they do not.  There is such a desire for longer courses on properties where length cannot be gained.  I always like to tell people, set the course up based on wind, rain, firmness.  The course length can change daily.  Throw out the pin sheets.  You can set pins back on some holes with the tees back and wind in your face.  The next day, play the tees up with a middle to front hole location and the hole may play 1 or 2 clubs different.  No one seems enthused.  There is too much regiment.  

I have played Bedford Springs 5 times since it opened at the hole locations have been in the same spot three time.

I cannot remember which club did this, but the men played the course from the forward tees and just loved it.

[Peter Wagner]

Hi Tom,

We're laying this out right now at my home club.  I'm thinking of 5 different setups (A,B,C,D and E) to be used across our normal 6 day a week playing schedule.  So the first Tuesday would be set up with the "A" configuration, Wednesday the "B" and so on.  By making it 5 setup configurations we will be changing days so that the Tuesday morning regulars will see different configurations all the time.

Not as easy as it seems, at least not to me.  Getting the yardage and pin locations to balance requires some thought.

But the upside is a fresh look for the players and that's very cool.

One side benefit is this would allow us to give certain tees more growing time in this rotation.

On a related issue, I'm talking to our super about maybe doing 3 heights of rough for major club tourneys (mem-mem, mem-guest, etc) but not for every day.

- Peter

[Dan Herrmann]

Tom,
Our new greenkeeper has done a lot of tee switching since he started this year.  One of his best moves has been to move the tees up 40 yards on the hole across the steet from Stonewall when the wind blows hard.  But it's not what you think - he moves the tee up when the wind HELPS the tee shot.

Why?

It brings a burn into play for us 12 handicappers.  The shot now requires thought - what club, which angle, etc...

He's been doing this a lot this year, even using "secret" tees that hadn't ever been used before.

He also does this with the "women's" tees.  Moves some up, some back, and some in places that completely changes the hole.  The gals absolutely love it too.

It's SO much fun, which for most of us is really what it's all about.  

Thanks for promoting the idea!

PS - the only naysayers have been the GHIN-o-philes, who worry that the course rating/slope won't be exactly correct - to which we say with a grin, "Who Cares!"

[Mike Sweeney]

Clearly Sand Hills is the Mother Ship of mix and max tees. One of my most fun rounds was at the end of the day playing the front tees with Huck, Uncle Bob and Christian.

I think Yale is too long from the back for me except for when it gets very firm. However, I think most players should play the following holes from the back:

2 - The top tee has a better visual and makes you want to challenge the hole

3 - Two completely different angles to choose from.

4 - see #2

6 - Not an original tee but the tee behind 5 green completly changes the angles

15 - A bunch of tees to choose from at different angles.

18 - Top tee (600+) again gives a better view of the landing area, and brings driver into the equation. Very big hitters can see the uphill area and maybe go for it.

[Willie_Dow]

Tom

Jack Whitaker and I played the West @ Merion today from the "Ladies" tee, because my wife was with us - um - and it was a perfect understanding of your thought.

There is a great deal of architecture exhibited from the various tee boxes !

Willie

[Steve_Lovett]

Tom:

I liked the "Doak Tees" at Tumble Creek.  Haven't yet played the course that way, but will be there in a week or so and might encourage our group to give it a try.

Out of curiousity, what was the criteria you used to establish those particular tees on the holes you selected?  

Do you think it's better to prescribe that flexibility, as has been done at Tumble Creek with those tees/yardages referenced on the scorecard - or is it just as well to leave it to the club staff to move it around at their discretion?

- Steve

[Mike Hendren]

Tom,  

In reviewing my scorecard from Tumble Creek it appears that a mixture of tees were in play as I circled the yardages.  The same tee was utilized for the Back (6492 yards) and Doak (6,209 yards) on six holes.  On the card, The Doak tees actually play longer than the Back tees on 7 and 16.   The Middle tee on 3 was also included in the mix that day.  I really liked the great variety of yardages 148 to 190 on the one-shotters, 320 to 450 on the par fours and 485 to 540 on the par fives for a total of 6407 the day I played.  

The only argument I could see against this practice would be handicap complications - though I could care less.  

[Steve_ Shaffer]

The next time that I play Bethpage Black I'll play most of the  the 4pars from the red tees and the par3s & par5s from the whites.

Mixing up tees should be done more often. It prevents boredom if one plays the same course a lot.

[John Moore II]

At my course, we actually have course ratings from mixed sets of tees, though we don't do a mixed set for the back tees. I think its a great idea, I am considering setting up for the club championship this way, if I can get the approval.

[Dan Herrmann]

JKM - We have even printed composite scorecards that show the correct color tee to use for the rated composite courses.  It's been wildly successful.

[Andy Troeger]

I agree mixing and matching tees is a wonderful way to play, especially on a course you play regularly. If I play 36 holes in one day I definitely try to play another set of tees or mix things up completely in the second round. Heck, sometimes I do it the first time just because I can 

[John Moore II]

Ours is nothing too outside the box though. Just like play 12 holes from the white tees and 6 from the blue. Not anything like 13 from the gold (black) 2 from the blue, 2 from the white and one from the red or something really outside the box like that.

[David Stamm]

I love the idea and actually have done this at a few courses I play at and it really makes one think about whether the hole is more interesting from different tees. It's sad that most places are not receptive to the idea.

[JohnV]

If your club has a regular mix that a lot of players use, just get the local association to do a rating from those tees.  They should be able to do it without even visiting the course as they have the raw numbers for each hole / tee combo  (assuming you aren't doing something like playing the 8th hole from 2nd tee).

If you just play a mix of tees for fun, you can calculate a rating and slope by using the USGA handicap manual section 5-1's tables for unrated tees.  See this link and scroll down for the tables for men and women:  http://www.usga.org/playing/handicaps/manual/sections/section_05.html#5-1
 

[Mike_Cirba]

I think this is a fantastic idea.

Jim Nagle...that must be a bit frustrating to see at Bedford Springs.

For instance, given that 4 of the par fives are longer than 589 yards from the tips, just mixing and matching those tees would give the course some real variability and different strategic options.

[Mike Bowline]

Some of my favorite holes are par 5s played from the forward/red tees. Turns them into a 4.5 par.

How does this question apply for a course one will only play one time? Would a player want a mix of tees, or the conventional consistent set on all holes? IMO, if I am playing a course only once, I would prefer to play the tees consistently on all holes.

But if the question refers to a club with members who play the course day in and day out, mixing up the tees would add variety. Just look at the many 9-hole courses who have a second set of tees for the second time around.

[Joe Cesario]

My home course (a decent muni in the Chicago burbs), implemented the exact opposite plan at the start of the season.  After a bunker renovation project last fall (and a couple new tee boxes to stretch the course to 6500 yards), the setup this spring included 4 sets of tees.  The yardages are 6500, 6300, 6000, 5600.   The par 5 10th measures 491, 505, 515, 525.  Talk about a lot of tee markers on the box!

Now, playing the back tees means always playing from the back of the teebox.  Every tee is back every day.  Last year the 195 yd par 3 was occasionally up and to the right at about 155.  If the tee was up on the par 5 15th, I had to consider driver over the fairway bunker or layup short.  Now its layup with the 3-wood everyday.  

There is no question in my mind that if you a play a course consistently, whether 4 straight day at the US Open, or everyday at your home course, moving the tees around is so much more enjoyable.

[Jeff_Lewis]

Long story.  Many years ago, playing the NLE Medalist in a member member.  We are informed on the first tee that there are only two sets of tees on the course, not the usual three, and that our net flight is playing the most forward set of tees, WHEREVER THEY ARE.  We get to 11, which was a fine little shortish par 4. From the forward tee, it was a mere 265, which with the featheries and hickories of ten years ago, made it driveable for me. As we approached  11 from 10, we noticed tee markers on the forward box, some 40-50 yards ahead of the main box.  We said...."cool, they want you to try to drive the green" and played the hole from the forward markers.  I hit a 3 wood to six feet, made the putt, and the guys in front of us said....where did you hit from?  Turns out there were 3 sets of markers.  We were penalized two shots, went back to the "Correct" tees and made 4 for 6.  Nice...and the USGA said we had to be wrong because who would think they would set it up so short, ironically. Good for them for changing a bit.

[Adam Clayman]

Red White and Blue tournaments can be a lot of fun. Especially on modern courses with so many vista teeing grounds, for the back tees, but the forwards are at grade or even require an uphill shot. 18 at Pinon Hlls as an i.e.

Who saw the new USGA commercial with that dweeb telling his female competitor he gets a stroke on the next hole as well?
I was shocked and humored by the response of the female actress. She actually called the forward tees the Ladies. How could the USGA miss such a an incorrect use of the vernacular?

[Scott Weersing]

Red White and Blue tournaments can be a lot of fun. Especially on modern courses with so many vista teeing grounds, for the back tees, but the forwards are at grade or even require an uphill shot. 18 at Pinon Hlls as an i.e.

Who saw the new USGA commercial with that dweeb telling his female competitor he gets a stroke on the next hole as well?
I was shocked and humored by the response of the female actress. She actually called the forward tees the Ladies. How could the USGA miss such a an incorrect use of the vernacular?

I played in a red, white and blue tournament at La Purisima and it was lots of fun. But holes no. 9 and no. 18 were played from the blue tees and I didn't get a break on those ones. You may think it is easier to play from the red tees but you do have to be careful not to drive it through the end of the fairway. For example, we played no. 10 at La Purisima from the red tees and hit a hybrid to keep it in play.

[Tom_Doak]

Mike Sweeney:

Last I saw Sand Hills there were only three tees per hole, and four tees on a couple of holes ... I was surprised they hadn't built more alternate tees so you could mix up how the holes played in different winds or on different rounds. 

It looked more like they tried to discourage people from playing all the way back, and made the middle tees short so players would get around easier, but maybe that just encourages players to make up their own combo tees.

Dan H.:

I understand exactly what you're talking about on your home course.  At Kiawah Mr. Dye wanted them to play BACK on the holes into the wind and UP on the holes that were downwind, to get the players really off balance.  Most people tend to do it the other way round, and make every hole the same effective length, instead of giving themselves the variety of a driveable par-4 and a par-4 they can't reach in two.

[Dan King]

We used to play a game where getting the honors also meant picking the tees you hit from on the next hole. Having the honors meant trying to pick a tee on the next hole that would give you an advantage.

The game went away when everyone became obsessed with typing in a score at the end of their round. It's a shame, it was lots of fun.

Cheers,
Dan King

Golf is more fun than walking naked in a strange place, but not much.
 --Buddy Hackett

[Mike Golden]

this is a great idea and something I will do routinely when there isn't a set of tees that plays a distance that I enjoy (between 6500-6700 yards).  If I don't know the golf course I would usually play the par 3's and 5's back and then the par 4's from the next set of tees.

At Lake Merced, Bo Links (who won the design contest last year) set up the golf course about 6 years ago with a mixed set of tees and has even had it rated by the NCGA.  There are about 6 Black tees, 6 Blues and 6 Whites used in the round and it's an interesting way to play your home course occasionally.

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