An Open, Public Plea to Ran & Ben

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen, that was in jest. The way they schedule the us open so far in advance its preposterous assumption.

Not a problem Adam, I looked at that last bit in and said to myself huh?   

[Jeff_Brauer]

Many threads here could be construed as "An Open, Public PEE ON Ran", (or at least his idea of a civil discussion board.......

I mean, come on guys, when I find my hockey boards are more civil than this one, something has gone well wrong!  No need to look to Ran and Ben.....look inside.

Its always a fight over a woman that gets us in trouble (That Marion gal......) Lets just drop that subject. Its way past productive, its not arguing facts in evidence, (although it sure repeats them!) but rather our opinions of what they mean and whether there should be some nuance of accreditation or not to CBM for his five days spent on the design of Merion.

There are 15,660 other golf courses in the US to discuss.   Lets get on with it.

[Mike McGuire]

Philip,

I sincerely apologize to you or anyone else who doesn't not pre-judge the people on the tee in front of them simply on appearance, race, gender or age.  I wish I was half that man.

Honesty, humor and a knack for making you look at things in a different way. This is bound to annoy someone from time to time but thats the price. If its a vote - put me down for let him stay.

[TEPaul]

The GOLFLCLUBATLAS.com discussion board is like a barroom brawl on a Friday night in Dodge City after the cowboys got payed. Always has been and probably always will be. If anyone doesn't like it they should take Jeff Brauer's advice and go join one of those highly civilized, ultra "Miss Manners" hockey discussion groups he mentioned.

PS:
I've always been OK with Barney, JakaB, JK. The best thing to do with him is just laugh when you think he's funny and when you think he'd full of shit, just tell him you think he's full of shit!   

[Mike Hendren]

I think JK hits the point many times and just goes completely over the head of many of the GCA dorks.....

Mike, I DEMAND an apology. for being called a dork.  I thought Kyle won the contest fair and square.

A few random thoughts on GCA acrimony:

As Sherrif Taylor would say, "you guys beat all."  I watch NASCAR and GCA for the wrecks - hoping nobody ever gets hurt.

GCA sometimes reminds me of what the late Lewis Grizzard said about the veracity of newspapers:  "Heck, it only costs a quarter - if you want the truth we'd have to charge $9.95.

I cannot fathom anybody here p*ssing me off to the point that I'd:  a) get mad; or b) cease participation.  

As my dad once said:  "It doesn't really take all kinds to make a world - we just happen to have all kinds."

FINALLY , UNDER ANY SCENARIO, THIS WEB-SITE HAS BEEN A GODSEND FOR ME.  IT HAS ALLOWED ME TO INDULGE A LIFE-LONG INTEREST AND PASSION FOR WHICH THERE WAS NO PREVIOUSLY OUTLET.  I HAVE MADE THE ACQUAINTANCE OF WONDERFUL, GENEROUS AND FASCINATING GENTLEMEN AND SET FOOT WHERE I NEVER DREAMED.  

This acrimony is bull-sh*t.  With apologies to Barney Fife:  Nip it, nip it, nip it.

Kindest regards,

Mike

[TEPaul]

Some pretty cool little words of wisdom there, Michael H.

Here's one I was always partial to, even if it still probably needs some further consideration.

About forty five years ago about this time in June I was at that famous deb party of Fernanda Wanamaker Wetherill's in Southampton, Long Island. We were all standing around and Fernanda's brother Dring,  who really was a pretty strange dude, just happened to say to the group:

"You know, if you can't deck a friend of yours, who the hell can you deck?"

I think we all considered that one for about 30 seconds and then I think I asked him:
"Dring, is there any particular relevance to that remark?"

Dring:
"No, not really, it's just sort of a throwaway observation."

At that point, I decided to mosey on and hang out with someone else at which point I bumped right into William F. Buckley and proceeded to tell him I really enjoyed his weekly TV debate program "Firing Line", particularly when the person he was debating got him so worked up he started to do that weird "tongue-darting" idiosycracy of his. Buckley stood there in front of me for about five seconds, then proceeded to do some pretty serious "tongue darting", then he insulted me in Latin, and then he walked on with a very friendly smile on his face.

Basically, those were the good old days and I really do remember them so fondly.

[Mike Hendren]

About forty five years ago about this time in June I was at that famous deb party of Fernanda Wanamaker Wetherill's in Southampton, Long Island.

Tom, amazing the common perspective among those who live in mobile homes and those dwelling behind the hedge-rows.  I guess the other common dynamic between both demographics is that there residences are depreciating rapidly these days.  It's indeed a small world after all.

Mike

[Paul Richards]

Mike is spot-on here


Unfortunately I have spent much less time on this website, and exactly for this reason


I no longer have time for personal attacks and general ridiculousness that I have increasingly observed here

This used to be a friendly place where positive discussions took place.  No more.  And that is too bad.



Here are some of the quotes from a March thread that about did me in:

 20       GolfClubAtlas.com / Golf Course Architecture / Re: Ballyneal on the cover of Golfweek...Who knew the ocean was there?       on: March 14, 2008, 09:22:16 pm
Quote from: Mike Golden on March 14, 2008, 08:02:09 am

this website has become so much of a cluster fuck it is ridiculous.  Kavanaugh must spend way too much of his time thinking up ways to piss off people with statements that are insulting, confrontational, and stupid.  I guess reaching the pinnacle of such a noble profession must do that to someone.  Of course it could just be the liquor talking...


I really hate to say it, but I have to nominate this for the 'post of the year'.


 Cry
Reply Reply with quote Notify of replies
21     GolfClubAtlas.com / Golf Course Architecture / Re: Ballyneal on the cover of Golfweek...Who knew the ocean was there?    on: March 13, 2008, 08:58:18 pm

John

I love you, but when I read your rantings here, it reminds me of why I choose not to spend much time at this website anymore.

And that makes me sad.

[Jeff_Brauer]

The GOLFLCLUBATLAS.com discussion board is like a barroom brawl on a Friday night in Dodge City after the cowboys got payed. Always has been and probably always will be. If anyone doesn't like it they should take Jeff Brauer's advice and go join one of those highly civilized, ultra "Miss Manners" hockey discussion groups he mentioned.

PS:
I've always been OK with Barney, JakaB, JK. The best thing to do with him is just laugh when you think he's funny and when you think he'd full of shit, just tell him you think he's full of shit!   

I can agree on JK.  For some reason, he (or you) using low brow humor to make points resonates with me.  Sometimes, we just have to treat the subject of golf architecture with "all the seriouness it deserves" which from time to time, isn't a whole lot.

I don't really agree that this board isn't usually civil, with a few flare ups from time to time.  As I see it, your passion and mission to defend Merion from historic revisionism may be the cause of the single, longest, pissing match I can recall on gca.com.  And, I have been here, I think, since 1999, maybe 2000.

It just seems like you "doth protest too much" the way I read these threads.  Its only a barroom brawl because in your mind, this particular topic needs to be one.

[TEPaul]

"Tom, amazing the common perspective among those who live in mobile homes and those dwelling behind the hedge-rows."


MichaelH:

Bravo! It has always been my secret dream in life to ensure that there can be a common perspective. Perhaps the best mechanism of all in that vein is humor.

I just loved that line apropos of that when Whoopie Goldberg had just received the Mark Twain Award for humor and she stood there for about a minute and said nothing. Then she said she seriously considered not even coming to the Awards because of what was going on in the world (as the Awards were just after 9/11) but she decided to come after thinking about Mark Twain's remark:

"Nothing on earth can withstand the ONSLAUGHT of humor."

And then if I'm feeling really sappy I just sing the words of Lennon's "Imagine" to myself.

[Mike_Young]

Mike H,
Yes Kyle did win and I still have his belt.....
AND you get NO apology....I consider you normal and you have a ways to go to be a DORK.

I don't know where I miss it but I consider JK to be one of the funniest on here......maybe I am as sick as many think he is...

TP,
I invaded South Hampton last week with a few rednecks...there were a lot of guys like you out there with those little thin soled loafers that wear out on a fat guy in one day......I keep hearing stories of your escapades in bunkers at Piping Rock....I played there and truly enjoyed it but is it true you "conquered" something on every green there?  Inquiring minds want to know.

[Paul Richards]

Mike

great quote, to which I totally agree:

>FINALLY , UNDER ANY SCENARIO, THIS WEB-SITE HAS BEEN A GODSEND FOR ME.  IT HAS ALLOWED ME TO INDULGE A LIFE-LONG INTEREST AND PASSION FOR WHICH THERE WAS NO PREVIOUSLY OUTLET.  I HAVE MADE THE ACQUAINTANCE OF WONDERFUL, GENEROUS AND FASCINATING GENTLEMEN AND SET FOOT WHERE I NEVER DREAMED. 


This is how I felt for many years.  Unfortunately, my recent experiences have been less than positive. 

If this place returns to civility, I'd love to participate some more.  However, spending little time here recently, and coming back and seeing all this just reminds me why I step away....

 

[TEPaul]

"It just seems like you "doth protest too much" the way I read these threads.  Its only a barroom brawl because in your mind, this particular topic needs to be one."


JeffB:

I know, I do protest too much and I probably always will. But you love me anyway, right?

I have what I think is actually an excellent reason to continue to protest so much about Merion and what Moriarty is doing with it on here. Probably a couple of very good reasons.

One happened the other day with Wayne and me as we were talking to Ran on the phone. We said we felt the entire essay was just completely historically inaccurate, and Ran said: "What do you mean, it's very interesting and some rather important man just came up to me around Pinehurst and said he thought the website was wonderful because he read the essay and he'd certainly never realized that C.B. Macdonald routed and designed Merion East."

We both said: "Jeeesus, Ran, that is exactly the very thing we are trying to prevent on here!" Ran either said nothing or something like, "Oh, really?"

The other good example is how impossible it can be to actually rid the architectural history of a course of something misleading when it gets firmly embedded in enough peoples' minds long enough.

This 1910 story of Wilson going abroad in 1910 for seven months and coming home with reams of drawings and sketches and such and the idea that was his basis for being able to route and design and create Merion East is another great example.

At this point, I do not believe that story was even created within about 40-50 years of the creation of Merion East, but as we can see on these threads it is almost impossible to get it and the significance of it out of anyone's mind.

I just don't want to see the same thing happen with this Moriarty notion that Macdonald routed and designed Merion East or was the creative driving force behind it because he just wasn't. He didn't do anything like that with Merion East. I seriously doubt he even would've wanted to. I know he certainly couldn't have done it in about the two days he spent there.

So I don't want to see that story still hanging around the historic record of a great golf course a half century from now and to prevent that my inclination is to cut it off at the pass now. The problem is Moriarty just doesn't want to face facts or face reality because obviously he doesn't want anyone to see how wrong he is.

[Joe Hancock]

The GOLFLCLUBATLAS.com discussion board is like a barroom brawl on a Friday night in Dodge City after the cowboys got payed. Always has been and probably always will be. If anyone doesn't like it they should take Jeff Brauer's advice and go join one of those highly civilized, ultra "Miss Manners" hockey discussion groups he mentioned.

I think this is what has gotten this board into a less than desirable place to be. The fighting is pointless, and more about being macho and thumping chests rather than actually engaging brains and and having an intellectual debate about golf course architecture. The territories have long been established, and if the winners still needs to be determined, just look at the post counts of the members of this board to see who likes barroom brawls as a modus operandi.

Drink and flail away, boys.....

Joe

[TEPaul]

"......I keep hearing stories of your escapades in bunkers at Piping Rock....I played there and truly enjoyed it but is it true you "conquered" something on every green there?  Inquiring minds want to know."


MikeY:

You see, this is exactly how these untrue stories can get so out of hand. I never did anything like that at Piping Rock, not even close. I never even had any impure thoughts while I was there. I have mostly always been a most sensitive and considerate man, particularly with all women.

That kind of thing only happened to me once in my life and I've been totally ashamed of myself for it ever since. But it wasn't at Piping Rock or even New York or even in the north.

It happened to me just once down your way---in the south and I think it happened because the fact is those girls down there your way, and farther south, like South Florida just have a whole lot more of that stuff sometimes called "warm blood" than the gals up north.

It happened to me one night on some green at the Everglades Club and it wasn't my fault. It was all her fault.

What am I going to do now when I go to Long Island with stories like that? If someone looks at me sideways I think I'll be mortified! This is exactly why people like David Moriarty must be stopped immediately!

[Peter Pallotta]

Lots of good posts on this thread, with much I agree with. One thing I really don't like seeing (and really don't understand) is why, when good guys like Mike C or Tom H, say "hey, knock it off please" there are others - like John -- who just can't or won't respect that. Then I wish all these discussions on this board happened face to face instead -- it would show up the posturing and 'humour' for what it is.

Peter

[Jeff_Brauer]

JeffB:

I know, I do protest too much and I probably always will. But you love me anyway, right?

At this point, I am not even sure I will respect you in the morning!

[Mark_Fine]

Any discussion that is interesting or could be interesting digresses too quickly anymore and 80% of the posts are by the same people.  Too many others feel it is not worth jumping in.  A two or three week shut down of this site might do it a lot of good. 

[TEPaul]

"At this point, I am not even sure I will respect you in the morning!  "


Don't worry about that. You don't know me that well and even if you did, I'm not that easy, and I never will be particularly when, the only time we met you told me I was a terrible drawer. AND The FACT that is completely true has absolutely nothing to do with it.   

[Brad Klein]

I long ago learned a valuable lesson from dealing with the three people who have threatened to sue me; don't return their calls, don't respond to their emails; don't respond to their posts; and don't play golf with them. I'd extend the lesson to drunken boors, even clever ones. Some people might mistake them for eloquent, or observant, or satirical. I just think they are sociopathic frat boys who are incapable of actual conversation and are out simply to bully and hurt.

The principle that works best is ignoring them and ostracizing them. If that doesn't work, the police are a back-up. Too bad in the case of the GCA the police have decided to lay down their arms. Which means that if enough people don't ignore and ostracize, the bullies take over and claim the town square. In which case I'm happy to travel elsewhere. A version of that is happening here.

[John Kavanaugh]

Ran & Ben,

With all due respect, something needs to change here.

Some of us are very interested in finding the Merion story, despite the argumentative and personal nature of some of the threads.   I'm assuming if you didn't want them on your site, or didn't think they addressed appropriate architectural topics you'd simply remove them.

However, earlier this evening, after implying that all of southern California were racist, and also implying that Daniel Wexler (who he called a douche bag) and the Shackleford's were racist in their hatred of Riviera's owners, and that the USGA was as well because they picked Torrey Pines over Riviera for the US Open, John Kavanaugh wrote the following post on a thread I started on Merion's routing;

"If you want the Merion threads to end you just need to get Brad Klein to pull the plug.  Only the threat of no more free golf and unlimited access will get these raters to stop.  Why do you think Cirba has been so afraid of using his real name.  Please somebody that "Dr" Klein respeects give him a call."

For a long time now I've tried my best to simply ignore John.   I've even tried to befriend him in the past.

This has gone too far...much too far.

Please do whatever you think is appropriate, even if that means deleting my rights here, but it's time to do something.

I have to defend myself by saying that I never called Wexler a douche bag or the Shackelford's racists.  I say enough stupid things without anyone needing to make up lies.  I do believe racial descrimination exists against Asian golfers and I have given up all hope of the Merion threads ever ending.

If Cirba or anyone else can show me where I am lying I will pay their way into the Labbance outing.  Remember the delete button  no longer works so we have an accurate transcript.

I have never done anything but praise Wexler and Lynn S...Geoff not so much.

[Grant Saunders]

I have what I think is actually an excellent reason to continue to protest so much about Merion and what Moriarty is doing with it on here. Probably a couple of very good reasons.

One happened the other day with Wayne and me as we were talking to Ran on the phone. We said we felt the entire essay was just completely historically inaccurate, and Ran said: "What do you mean, it's very interesting and some rather important man just came up to me around Pinehurst and said he thought the website was wonderful because he read the essay and he'd certainly never realized that C.B. Macdonald routed and designed Merion East."

We both said: "Jeeesus, Ran, that is exactly the very thing we are trying to prevent on here!" Ran either said nothing or something like, "Oh, really?"

The other good example is how impossible it can be to actually rid the architectural history of a course of something misleading when it gets firmly embedded in enough peoples' minds long enough.

This 1910 story of Wilson going abroad in 1910 for seven months and coming home with reams of drawings and sketches and such and the idea that was his basis for being able to route and design and create Merion East is another great example.

At this point, I do not believe that story was even created within about 40-50 years of the creation of Merion East, but as we can see on these threads it is almost impossible to get it and the significance of it out of anyone's mind.

I just don't want to see the same thing happen with this Moriarty notion that Macdonald routed and designed Merion East or was the creative driving force behind it because he just wasn't. He didn't do anything like that with Merion East. I seriously doubt he even would've wanted to. I know he certainly couldn't have done it in about the two days he spent there.

So I don't want to see that story still hanging around the historic record of a great golf course a half century from now and to prevent that my inclination is to cut it off at the pass now. The problem is Moriarty just doesn't want to face facts or face reality because obviously he doesn't want anyone to see how wrong he is.

WOW.

Yet another thread that is being reduced into a continuation of the ongoing Merion bullshit.

I really am quite sick of this shit. At least when the arguments were restricted to just the Merion threads I could choose not to read them. Now it seems every second or third thread I open is being hijacked by the same select few who appear to be wanting to continue the fight in public. The ongoing personal attacks are becoming tiresome and it amazes me how such intelligent people can stoop to this schoolyard type of crap.

It has now become clear to me how it is that some people on here have such a high number of posts to there name when so much of what they write is absolute arse.

I suggest that the small group of you who care so much about this Merion thing continue your discussions via private communications and save yourself from looking like a bunch of idiots in front of everyone else on board here. I know that I have certainly lost respect for those involved.

[Jeff_Brauer]

TePaul,

Here's the funny thing about your continuation of these threads and/or the starting of new ones....

Like someone reading about an arrest on page 1, but missing the acquittal later on on page 22 of the local paper, if the truth ever gets posted here now, no one in the future is likely to read it on the 1000th post or 100th thread.

I think you have made your point and any reasonable reader now or in the future can figure out what it is, without you repeating it for the whatever time.......For all we talk about strategy and minimalism here, you exhibit neither!

[John_Conley]

I'm really pretty disappointed that nobody else around here seems to have the nerve and guts to stand up to a mentally ill bully who has been more of a destructive cancer to this website over the years than any Merion thread.

Hey now, I never tolerate his crap.

[John Kavanaugh]

Cirba has finally figured out how to get me to shut up.  Take someone I respect and make up a lie saying I said something terrible about them.  It has been over eight hours since I offered to pay anyones way into the Labbance outing if they could show me where the basis for his lies.  I know I deserve to be crapped on but the people who he has dragged into this do not.  Please Mike, say what you want about me but remove your lies about good people who do not have a dog in this fight.

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