An Open, Public Plea to Ran & Ben

[Mike_Cirba]

Ran & Ben,

With all due respect, something needs to change here.

Some of us are very interested in finding the Merion story, despite the argumentative and personal nature of some of the threads.   I'm assuming if you didn't want them on your site, or didn't think they addressed appropriate architectural topics you'd simply remove them.

"If you want the Merion threads to end you just need to get Brad Klein to pull the plug.  Only the threat of no more free golf and unlimited access will get these raters to stop.  Why do you think Cirba has been so afraid of using his real name.  Please somebody that "Dr" Klein respeects give him a call."

For a long time now I've tried my best to simply ignore John.   I've even tried to befriend him in the past.

This has gone too far...much too far.

Please do whatever you think is appropriate, even if that means deleting my rights here, but it's time to do something.

[Joe Hancock]

Mike,

I trust you made attempts behind the scenes(IM, email, phone) before making this a public outcry.

Joe

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike,

I trust you made attempts behind the scenes(IM, email, phone) before making this a public outcry.

Joe

Joe,

This has gone on for years.   Past pleas have gone for naught.

John has it in for Golfweek, for Brad, and for raters in general and the guy is frankly sickening in his latest comments here.

[John Kavanaugh]

I never said anything bad about Wexler who I geatly admire.  I guess I hit a nerve when I said it would take Klein to get this Merion cancer to stop.  Right again..just like about Torrey being a great Open and Asian hate being the number one problem facing the future of golf. 

[Adam Clayman]

John, For us much more ignorant could you explain how a phone call to Brad will stop the Merion threads?

[Mike_Cirba]

I'm really pretty disappointed that nobody else around here seems to have the nerve and guts to stand up to a mentally ill bully who has been more of a destructive cancer to this website over the years than any Merion thread.

[John Kavanaugh]

Adam,

All Brad has to do is say that the next Golfweek rater who starts or posts on a Merion thread will lose their card and this crap will stop.  I believe the ninth bell has already rang on the subject.  .  

[Mike_Cirba]

Adam,

The fact is, I'm the only Golfweek person contributing to the Merion threads, yet that's where Kavanaugh is yet again obsessing.

If I quit this site tomorrow, the Merion debates would continue with or without me.

Can you imagine the chutzpah that John Kavanaugh has to suggest that he should tell Brad Klein what he should or shouldn't do regarding any member of his panel??   Would anyone else here suggest that anyone, in any line of industry, should make personal or business decisions not based on their own judgement and wisdom, but on the basis of the brother of a professional architect who seemingly has some axe to grind based on some perceived slight or injustice over the years??

The truth is, John Kavanaugh will likely soon get his wish that I no longer participate here, because to be honest, I've had a lot of internal debates in recent weeks weighing my continued friendships, interest, and collegial debates and discussions here against how they are interpreted outside...

...because my interest in doing something concrete and positive for golf like what we're trying to do with Cobb's Creek outweighs my ramblings and warblings here by a factor of 10 to 1.

If I thought...as I tend more often than not to do given some of the contentiousness here recently...that I'd jeopardize the possible success of that project by something I said here, I'd leap away in a flash.

[BVince]

I am not going to take a personal agenda on anyone who hasn't done anything against me.

John, K....I doubt Brad wants to control any of his rater's opinions of Merion or any other course.  Why would a panel be necessary if one man controls the others?  Golfweek is a fine panel.

[Kalen Braley]

Mike,

I understand your concern and I did pipe up and say the following in the Wexler thread.

John,

Not buying the race card here 1 bit, even though I do know you don't really beleive it and are just trying to stir up the pot.

However I will note and if I have my facts correct Pebble Beach which is owned by the resort either currently is or was once onced by a large Asian contingent.  And that never stopped all those US Open being played there and continue to be scheduled in the future.

Was the USGA just being selective in how it played the race card?

The irnoic thing is your so-called disgust in racism, yet your the one making unfounded statements and using the race issue to bash others.  Good job JK.

[DMoriarty]

I'm really pretty disappointed that nobody else around here seems to have the nerve and guts to stand up to a mentally ill bully who has been more of a destructive cancer to this website over the years than any Merion thread.

This might be the most ironic thing you have ever posted, given the company you keep.

_________________________

You've started at least 10 merion threads.   Stop starting them everytime you think you have a point. 

_____________________

If John seriously said what you say he did, I find if fascinating that the comment that put you over the top was one about you losing your rater card.   Priorities, I guess.

[Garland Bayley]

I'm really pretty disappointed that nobody else around here seems to have the nerve and guts to stand up to a mentally ill bully who has been more of a destructive cancer to this website over the years than any Merion thread.

You are absolutely correct about the destructive cancer part. Sometimes circumstances keep a persons stand against John from making much of an impact. One evening I read a thread that I had been following and posting to and found John labeling me a racist. I responded in extremely strong terms (so much so that I went back a hour or so later and removed the language that I try to avoid using). All of this happened after midnight east coast time, because I am on the west coast. When I connected the next morning I found the thread had been deleted, which chagrined me, because his accusation of racism had stood for a while for people to see, but my response happened after people had quit reading and probably disappeared before they could read it.

[Garland Bayley]

I'm really pretty disappointed that nobody else around here seems to have the nerve and guts to stand up to a mentally ill bully who has been more of a destructive cancer to this website over the years than any Merion thread.

This might be the most ironic thing you have ever posted, given the company you keep.

_________________________

You've started at least 10 merion threads.   Stop starting them everytime you think you have a point. 

_____________________

If John seriously said what you say he did, I find if fascinating that the comment that put you over the top was one about you losing your rater card.   Priorities, I guess.

I'm sorry David, but John K. goes way beyond anything Mike or his "company" have engaged in.

[DMoriarty]

I'm really pretty disappointed that nobody else around here seems to have the nerve and guts to stand up to a mentally ill bully who has been more of a destructive cancer to this website over the years than any Merion thread.

This might be the most ironic thing you have ever posted, given the company you keep.

_________________________

You've started at least 10 merion threads.   Stop starting them everytime you think you have a point. 

_____________________

If John seriously said what you say he did, I find if fascinating that the comment that put you over the top was one about you losing your rater card.   Priorities, I guess.

I'm sorry David, but John K. goes way beyond anything Mike or his "company" have engaged in.

You obviously have not been paying attention over the past 10 years.

[John Kavanaugh]

It can't be just my imagination that people hate Asian golfers and owners.  Can anyone tell me that they don't cringe when they see four Asian guys on the tee in front of them?

[Garland Bayley]

It can't be just my imagination that people hate Asian golfers and owners.  Can anyone tell me that they don't cringe when they see four Asian guys on the tee in front of them?

The only time I cringe is when there are only three of them and they aren't inviting me to be their fourth.

But then we all know you have labelled me and my type, including Richard Choi on this site, as social misfits.

Let me quote a thread I read from way back that I read before actual names were required. "Barney, why don't you crawl back under that rock you crawled out from under!"

[John Kavanaugh]

Why is it so hard for most of you people to admit you hate somebody when so few of us can say we love someone.

[John Kavanaugh]

Garland,

The fact that you have over 4000 posts on an internet site about golf achitecture makes you a social misfit.  Looks like I nailed that one just like I predicted this would be the greatest US Open of modern times.  The only reason I keep giving this shit away is because I am so damn good a building roads.

[Michael Dugger]

Good God men let it go.  Let it all go.  Take a month off and remind yourself sometimes it is best to agree to disagree.

Then stop taking yourself, your position or your precious private club so seriously.

[Michael Dugger]

Oh, and Kav, you are not always as funny as you seem to think you are.

[Paul Saathoff]

Who the hell cares?  How old are we here?  This is like fighting with your girlfiriend via text messaging... pointless

[John Kavanaugh]

The best thing I can do for a lousy Golfweek rater is come out against his status.  Brad just keeps those guys on because he knows it drives me nuts.  When it comes to a battle of wits I have met very few men as great as Dr. Klein.

[mike_beene]

John,why would I cringe because there were four Asian golfers on the tee in front of me?

[Mike_Cirba]

David,

The company I keep??

Despite your repeated attempts to portray the number of people who disagree with your assertions and conclusions as some monolithic, conspiratorial force, I can tell you that even those folks I know personally don't agree with me on many, many things, even about Merion's history.

For instance, Tom Paul and I don't really agree about whether Wilson went to Europe or not prior to 1912, and Wayne and I certainly don't agree about Wilson's degree of hands-on involvement as an architect.  

Ultimately, it's a matter of degrees and we're all slightly wrong.

Everyone, that is, except you.

If I've started 10 Merion threads, that's about 1/3 the number of people who you've accused of not reading your essay, not understanding what you've written, coming from a biased perspective, and/or engaging in personal attacks, insulting comments, uncivil behavior, and basic barbarism.   I believe the latest two have been Rich Goodale and Sean Arble.

This thread has NOTHING to do with you, or with Merion, or with the Merion threads.

The fact you've seen to come here and personally attack me again is a clear indication of a child who has lost their way, who has had their points wholly refuted publicly, and who is now flailing in every direction to cause damage and destruction.

Many weeks ago  I publicly and privately apologized to you because I had made some very personal comments based on what I was told about your motives for coming back to GCa and writing your essay.

I was told that you were coming back here with a personally vindictive agenda against Tom Paul, Wayne Morrison, and myself and hoped to make us all look foolish.   That information was given to me from someone who you have no idea about...and your guesses, as well as Tom MacWoods...have been far from accurate... but also someone who I know is close to you and who I trust implicitly.    Perhaps they were simply misinformed.

In the intervening weeks, I've given you every single benefit of the doubt, and I defy you to find a post of mine that has been personally insulting....the worst I've done is engage in some satire when things got a bit too serious or labored.    

I've tried to stick to the facts.

The fact that you've come on here and tried to add to John's personal attack on me is...what it is.
 
This isn't life and death, David.   This is trying to find out the details about a golf course, despite our passions.

Thanks for making clear to everyone exactly where you're coming from.

[Phil_the_Author]

John,

When you write, "Can anyone tell me that they don't cringe when they see four Asian guys on the tee in front of them?" you are admitting that YOU CRINGE WHEN YOU see "four Asian guys on the tee" in front of you.

When you then write, "Why is it so hard for most of you people to admit you hate somebody when so few of us can say we love someone." You are stating that YOU WON'T ADMIT THAT YOU HATE SOMEONE SIMPLY BASED UPON THEIR ETHNIC BACGROUND.

John, I grew up learning and playing golf at Bethpage. There are at least as many Asian players, African-American players, women players and every other conceivable minority playing golf at the facility, if not more as there are 5 courses in play, than at any other facility in America.

NOT ONE SINGLE TIME have I ever looked down upon another player becuase of their ethnicity or sex nor have I ever questioned their right to play the game of golf where I do.

When you blatantly state that "most of you people" (on GCA.com at a minimum) will not admit the HATE they feel for others simply because they have a different ethnic background, you insult ME!

How DARE YOU! We have NEVER MET, we have NEVER SPOKEN ON THE PHONE or even communicated outside of the scope of GCA.COM. YET you have the AUDACITY TO CALL ME A RACIST!

That is disgusting and I demand that you publicly apologize as you so publicly accused ME and EVERYONE ELSE who posts on GCA.COM as being of the most despicable of people!

In addition, I recently emailed you on here and offered to get you on to Bethpage Black whenever you might be on Long Island. Normally I would NEVER reveal the comments of a private message but I believe that, due to it's contents, It would be most apropos to do so after your most hateful of comments.

You wrote, "I do need to get out east as I have never played golf east of Indiana.  I will do some thinking about Torrey and get back to you but as I have only played it once my take may be stale.  You can't use it on the radio or tv but it is a neat story that after 35 years of golf it was the first round of golf I ever played with an African American or Asian.  I would love to compare the international play with Bethpage...kind of a Europe against Asia feel..."

John, please preserve your dignity and apologize for ypour comments... They were insulting, wrong and they demeaned you most of all...

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