[Mike_Young]

Big Brown comes in last.....

Annika retires before testing starts....

Baseball players left and right already caught.....

Are those of us that think it cynics or are those that say it doesn't exist ignorant?

Whether we like it or not it is in golf.....

[Joe Hancock]

Mike,

My D5 is apparently on the juice......

Joe

[JESII]

I've never heard that nickname for it before, Grandpa...

[Brian Noser]

The difference is in horse racing in most places it is legal.... it is obvious that it works after BB performance yesterday... I don't buy the whole thing was based on his hoof. I don't  think he looked as buff and in control like in previous races.

[TEPaul]

MikeY:

As if we haven't had enough surprises in major Stakes horse racing in the last some years that performance yesterday of Big Brown was one of the God-damnedest I ever saw.

Something was going on with that incredible horse yesterday, I just don't think they've figured it out yet. What he was doing and what happened to him, particularly as he hit the top of the stretch has to be a whole lot more than just a horse having an off-day.

I've been following that sport for a lot of years and I got some kind of special intro and info to it decades ago with my time around Claiborne Farm and all the great trainers and horse people I ran across then.

I don't have any idea what was going on with Big Brown yesterday but if you want my opinion on the symptom of whatever it was it's this:

That horse is one remarkably smooth and powerful runner---he sure has proved that---but yesterday if you look at him throughout the entire race his head was bobbing up and down way more than any of the others in the race, not to mention he was pretty rank throughout apparently necessitating Desormeux to be almost leaning backwards trying to rate him.

Big Brown had to be compensating for something they haven't figured out. It looked to me like he was working about 120% from the first turn through the back stretch when he ordinarily wouldn't have to do that and when he got to the top of the stretch run it had to have taken it out of him where he was about less than empty.

Some might criticize Desormeaux for not wanted to look bad but when I saw him pull that great horse out and away and up in the stretch it almost brought tears to my eyes not that the Triple was gone but that just shows what a man and an animal that really understand one another is all about. To me that was one beautiful thing.

But the whole thing was just bizarre. I hope they figure out the reason. If it was me, hell, I'd just get a bottle of wine and in about a week I'd go into the stall with Big Brown at midnight and just talk it over with him and ask him. I have no doubt he'd tell me what really happened.

[Craig Sweet]

For what it's worth...yesterdays wining time was 2:29 and change...Secretariat ran 2:24 and change, I believe....do you have any idea what 5 seconds translates into lengths?   Big Brown is far from being an "incredible" horse...and for whatever reason, (and I doubt it had little to do with a lack of steroids) he tossed up a lousy performance....

[John Mayhugh]

I wasn't disappointed that Big Brown lost.  It was hard for me to root for a horse whose trainer was so arrogant.  I did feel sorry for Desormeaux, though.  I was surprised that Da' Tara got away with such a slow pace and no one really got a run at him. Big Brown never looked right at any point in the race and I suspect we may not ever know why.

The triple crown in racing is starting to look nearly as difficult as the grand slam in golf.

[TEPaul]

"do you have any idea what 5 seconds translates into lengths?"


Craig:

Five seconds translates into app. 25 lengths.

Big Red (Secretariat) won that Belmont by 31 lengths. Nobody is going to nip that record anytime soon. But the thing that truly shocked all racing experts and analysts is how fast Secretatiat flew through the last two furlongs, particularly the last one in that super long Belmont (it's 1 1/2 miles compared to the more normal Stakes distance of 1 1/4 or 1 1/8). It was so much different than anything anyone had ever done before no one could really explain it. They just sort of wrote it off that the horse was some kind of physical anomaly which I guess he really was---apparently he had a chest on him and some lungs like you very rarely see.  But the funny thing about Secretariat was that with all that power and potential there were times in his career he just didn't show the competitiveness or the killer instinct that some of the other greats like Seabiscuit or Northern Dancer or even Affirmed always did. Secretariat was actually not undefeated in his career and if any horse should have been he was definitely the one.

I remember one well---it was after the Triple Crown and just around the time he went into syndication. The syndicater, Seth Hancock of Claiborne Farm pushed to run him again at Saratoga and for some reason Big Red was just sort of farting around and some horse that put every last ounce it had into the stretch run nipped him. God only knows why they decided to run him there---there was absolutely nothing to gain at that point and everything to lose. But still he got syndicated for more than had ever been done before.

[Mike Golden]

For what it's worth...yesterdays wining time was 2:29 and change...Secretariat ran 2:24 and change, I believe....do you have any idea what 5 seconds translates into lengths?   Big Brown is far from being an "incredible" horse...and for whatever reason, (and I doubt it had little to do with a lack of steroids) he tossed up a lousy performance....

I was at the track the day Seattle Slew won the Champagne as a 2 year old after just two prior races.  He was even at the top of the stretch and in what seemed like 3 strides was 10 lengths clear.  He and Secretariat were the best horses I ever saw (and Forego was on the same card as Seattle Slew that day).  I don't think the Slew or Secretariat needed steroids or Lasix to run times much, much faster than anything today.

[Bill Gayne]

Secretariat was a physical freak. The autopsy revealed that all of his organs were normal sized except the heart which weighed 22 pounds and the typical horses heart weighs 8.5 pounds. Until another horse comes along with a similar physical aberration and a love to run the records will stand.

[JESII]

What's the back story on Dutrow stating that Big Brown will not have steroids prior to the Belmont?

Is there even a story? Did I misread/mis hear something?

Was there a stated reason for changing course?

[TEPaul]

MikeG:

That you mentioned you were at that Seattle Slew race reminds me that I've only been to one horse race in my life and that's been by design because I could never hope to top it so I'll never attempt to try. It was at the 1972 Derby and this client of Clairborne Farm's had a horse in the Derby because Claiborne's owner, Bull Hancock, told Mrs. Penny Tweedie, his client from New York that she just had to give it one last shot before shutting down her father's farm (that was Mr Chenery from Maryland who'd basically been Bull Hancock's father's partner in eugenics that some say perfected the modern American thoroughbred). She had to shut down to deal with her father's death/estate taxes.

So he convinced her to run Riva Ridge in the Derby. I was sitting right next to her in the Clairborne box which is right smack on top of the wire at Churchill Downs the farm is so old. Riva Ridge won the Derby and the din and the aura surrounding that was something I've definitely never experienced before or since (with the possible exception of Fireball's first win in the Daytona 500 ).

Anyway, Riva Ridge lost the Preakness and won the Belmont and Penny Tweedie was definitely BACK IN BUSINESS!!!

Guess who she had the next year?  

In two years Penny Tweedie won 5 out of 6 of the Triple Crown races!

[TEPaul]

Sully:

Those top trainers are some really interesting and diverse types, that's for damn sure, and they all have their own wrinkles and ways of doing things that sometimes can vary tremendously. I have no idea why Dutrow decided not to use steriods this time but whatever his reasons he obviously thought not using them was better for his horse for some reason. I'm not even sure what some of these steriods are anymore but I do remember from a while ago that some of them are not legal in some states, like New York.

[TEPaul]

"Mike Young, you're saying Annika uses steroids?"


Kelly:

Mike isn't only saying that. What he really means is he uses steroids big-time and because he does he wants everyone to think everyone uses steroids and if anyone denies that he thinks they're just being ignorant. Haven't you ever noticed how big MikeY is? When I first met him he was only about 5' 4'' and he couldn't have weighed more than 117 lbs with all his clothes on. He didn't have three ounces of muscle on hisself back then, and about 2 1/2 of those ounces of muscle was inside his noggin, and just look at him now----he's got about 100 lbs of muscle on him and about 17 ounces of muscle inside his noggin now!

[Craig Sweet]

From what I hear Belmont was anything but "firm and fast" yesterday...it sounds as if the track was a tad "deep"....perhaps Big Brown couldn't find any traction and it pissed him off?

[Craig Sweet]

Way back last year when Annika was no longer winning I mentioned something about steroids....who knows what a player might do during a build up to a competition against bigger, stronger competitors? 

[Dean Stokes]

Big Brown comes in last.....

Annika retires before testing starts....

Baseball players left and right already caught.....

Are those of us that think it cynics or are those that say it doesn't exist ignorant?

Whether we like it or not it is in golf.....

Who'll be first to get caught though???  And what will the resulting penalty be??? I think if we use the same penalty system Mr Finchem has on hand for the pace of play issues, the first culprit to get found out using 'performance enhancers' may feel Finchems wrath and have to sit out the mandatory Wednesday Pro am for one week.

[Mike Golden]

MikeG:

That you mentioned you were at that Seattle Slew race reminds me that I've only been to one horse race in my life and that's been by design because I could never hope to top it so I'll never attempt to try. It was at the 1972 Derby and this client of Clairborne Farm's had a horse in the Derby because Claiborne's owner, Bull Hancock, told Mrs. Penny Tweedie, his client from New York that she just had to give it one last shot before shutting down her father's farm (that was Mr Chenery from Maryland who'd basically been Bull Hancock's father's partner in eugenics that some say perfected the modern American thoroughbred). She had to shut down to deal with her father's death/estate taxes.

So he convinced her to run Riva Ridge in the Derby. I was sitting right next to her in the Clairborne box which is right smack on top of the wire at Churchill Downs the farm is so old. Riva Ridge won the Derby and the din and the aura surrounding that was something I've definitely never experienced before or since (with the possible exception of Fireball's first win in the Daytona 500 ).

Anyway, Riva Ridge lost the Preakness and won the Belmont and Penny Tweedie was definitely BACK IN BUSINESS!!!

Guess who she had the next year?  

In two years Penny Tweedie won 5 out of 6 of the Triple Crown races!

TE Paul, I had forgotten about Riva Ridge and never saw Secretariat in person but as a kid and young adult really enjoyed watching great horses run.  My first favorite was Kelso, he, like Forego and John Henry, were geldings so raced until they were about 10.  Those days are long gone now with the amount of money being paid for stud fees.  The funny thing is that Secretariat wasn't a great stud nor was Affirmed (I believe) but Slew and Alydar produced much better offspring for racing.  I really enjoyed Seattle Slew kicking Affirmed's ass a couple of times after Affirmed won the Triple Crown, can you imagine how much interest there would be today in two consecutive Triple Crown winners racing against each other?

[Bill Shamleffer]

To make groundless allusions per specific individuals is completely uncalled for, and serves no real beneficial purpose.

[Craig Sweet]

Well now, what about Ruffian?  The Annika of her day...sort of   I dare say Ruffian and Secretariat were the two best I have ever seen....

[TEPaul]

"From what I hear Belmont was anything but "firm and fast" yesterday..."

Craig:

Yesterday for the Belmont the track was officially listed as "Fast". That's from the New York stewards and they're awful accurate about that, and they should be because it's the kind of thing they do every day.

That Ruffian really was something wasn't she? I don't think there ever will be another major on-track injury when Ruffian isn't brought up. That was the worst breakdown I ever saw (her leg virtually exploded into pieces), and that's probably why we may never see another major "match race" again of two champions.

[Craig Sweet]

TMAN....yeah, I know they had the track listed as "fast" but I understand they were not watering and the dirt was deep....that can make traction a problem....the winning time was pretty darn slow....I wonder how the earlier races on the card went?

[Mike_Young]

Big Brown comes in last.....

Annika retires before testing starts....

Baseball players left and right already caught.....

Are those of us that think it cynics or are those that say it doesn't exist ignorant?

Whether we like it or not it is in golf.....

Mike Young, you're saying Annika uses steroids?

KBM,

Uses or used?
She weighs 25 pounds less.....can't hit near as far as she did and she knows the tests have begun.....come on you know the answer and you heard it here first....

Bill shamleffer,
If you are speaking of me...I have made no groundless allusions.....now TE Paul has when he mentioned my personal steroid use.....yes I have used them....it cleared up my allergies over nite.....

[John Mayhugh]

TMAN....yeah, I know they had the track listed as "fast" but I understand they were not watering and the dirt was deep....that can make traction a problem....the winning time was pretty darn slow....I wonder how the earlier races on the card went?

The winning time for the Belmont was indeed slow, but I don't think it had much to do with the track conditions.  Da' Tara was allowed to set a slow pace and got away with it.  The winning times of the other races in the day were pretty normal.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Mike I'm with Kelly and Bill.  I know next to nothing about Annika but I think you've made your point without dragging her into this. Unless you know more and are prepared to put it up here I'd be a lot happier if you edited her out.

Something along the lines of "presumed innocent unless proven otherwise" would seem to apply.

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